S.A. Cichlid questions

[Cuchulainn]

I would if I had gills

[RTR]

Overcrowding suppresses territoriality among SACs and most other mid-size Cichlids, but I just cannot do that. I am unable to watch a confetti tank, they give me the horrors. Big mbuna tanks with lots and lots of rockwork - so long as you omit any species with a tendency to hyper-dominance are the only mixed tanks I can keep. I had much rather keep a species tank - which for these fish means one pair, even in a 120, plus some upper-water dithers. Then you do have the issue of fry to deal with.

FYI - JDs in a big tank get huge and live forever. that is not bad, as they are among the few fish that look better the older they get.

Nothing is perfect, there are always issues to handle.

FWIW (= For What Its Worth)

[Cuchulainn]

Thanks RTR, your inputs greatly appreciated. When U said "which for these fish means one pair"
were U speaking of SAC like fire mouths, or talking about the Mbuna? I originally set up this tank for green tefe discus, but due to high floods this year, not sure when they will be available. There are alot of plants in the tank right now, mostly Frazeri. RTR would U mind taking a gander at the pics I posted of the tank? Page 10 in the album section. Wondering if i would need to take most of the plants out, if I do indeed decide to go with some sort of SAC. I've been told they will more than likely chew thru them, even though Anubias doesn't exactly look like a tender leaved plant. U don't think its ok to keep more than one pair of any SAC in a 120g? I need more room for more tanks!
What kind of top dither fish would U think to be ok with SAC?

[RTR]

It take a while for me to look at pics - extra handling is required and if they are not high-density pics it does not work. I don't have the on-line time required right now (I played with some Word stuff before I logged in here). Maybe later or another day.

The SACs tend to stable pairs in captivity (likely not in the wild). Mbuna do not often work that way, different breeding systems, most commonly variants on harems. That is one of the most fascinating things about Cichlids - they have huge variety, not just in body form, but in lifestyles and niche adaptations. Most of the SACs I have worked with are substrate (or cave - same thing really) spawners and egg and fry tenders via pits. That makes them rather hard on plants. Already well established Crinums and the larger Sag are possible in some of their tanks, but not much else IME. And even those have to really be well established before the Cichlids are mature or they too will be dug out to suit the fish's fancy. Believe it or not, that is not a bad thing ecologically- it is akin to selected harvest of trees in a woodlot. even midsized SAC tend to have largish breeding territories relative to our tank sizes. They taught me a lot about how different our tanks are from the wild. I have run three pairs of Rainbow Cichlids (long ago, the ones I see now are pathetically overbred - they have lost their looks) in a 120 and it was a fascinating tank - the territories expand and contract with which pair is breeding. If the two end pairs were at it, the middle pair could not spawn. If the middle was breeding, one or both end pairs could not, depending on the exact location of the middle pairs' spawn and fry pits. Really cool stuff to me. But I considered those small or dwarf Cichlids. I never tried the Firemouths (one of my fave fish - there are closely related types in the wild and in captivity - have you seen such? They can be cool as well) in a 120 you might get two functional pairs in a 12o, likely could in a 180, but it may still be iffy. Getting the fry out gradually is part of the survival of such setups. The defending male might go postal.

Everybody needs more room, more time, and more money for tanks - that is part of the addiction. Cichlids are as bad as puffers - so many variants on the theme. I am finally getting to the point of really reducing tank numbers and time required, but I don't think I will ever not want more.

I use lots of Anubias b. nana in the mbuna and tang rock-dweller set-ups. They do not often bother it but sometimes knock it loose. Ditto for the dwarfs. Many to most mid-sized and all the large Cichlids tend to tear it up without eating it.

HTH

[Cuchulainn]

"the territories expand and contract with which pair is breeding. If the two end pairs were at it, the middle pair could not spawn. If the middle was breeding, one or both end pairs could not, depending on the exact location of the middle pairs' spawn and fry pits. Really cool stuff to me." Quote
That would be fascinating to watch for sure! I'd sit there for hours

I'm not sure which closely related species U speak of? There may be alot? I have see the Thorichthys Passionis-Yellow Firemouth cichlid, and the Orange firemouths(don't remember what the name was for them was) in a LFS I visit often
The Elliot cichlids I think are closely related as well-although not sure. They are very beautiful. Only seen pictures of the Ellioti though, they seem to be kinda rare.

Decisions, decisions. I definitely need to do more research before I go and make a purchase. Thanks again for the info everybody

[RTR]

Yup, the Firemouth (apparent) kin. I really like Firemouths, but it seems strange that we ignored the rest of the group for decades, when it is likely they are all fine captive fish. If I were still a Cichlid nut, I would have kept any of those I could get.

Tanks of substrate breeders are fascinating (you can do the same with Angelfish BTW). I used a number of territory markers - single stones sticking up, along with small driftwood posts (near- or vertical pieces) for the fish to use as territory markers. They would move out by a marker or two just pre-spawn, then contract as the fry diminished in numbers.

And you are right, they are endlessly fascinating. I let a student at a local Univ. sit in front of one of those tanks for a couple of hours every day for 6-8 weeks. He got an A+,the prof was snowed, he said it sounded like something from Konrad Lorentz' Institute and asked to visit the site, which was fun. Lorentz did work with Cichlids - that is where I got the idea of lining up batteries on breeders - when a pair squabble, it means you have let the end glasses get dirty. Clean up and harmony appears again because they can interact with adjacent tanks of conspecifics to release aggression. The combined tanks just give additional detail, but restrict the size of the fish involved due to large territory size being related to fish size for most Central and South American substrate spawners.

I really, really like tanks where I can watch and learn while watching. I am more a fish-watcher than a fish-keeper. Cichlids and puffers and even schoolers cannot talk, but do show us a lot by their behavior. To me that is the big disadvantage of mixed tanks - they kill so much "normal" behavior.

[soggydrysuit]

I'd love a 30g tank with just a pair of jewel cichlids in it. Maybe get six juveniles until a pair forms then rehome the rest back to the (responsible) shop. I've a tank that size spare unless another puffer appears in the shop. Or shell dwellers!

There's a pic of a pair of these cichlids with fry in an old book by Gwin Vevers or Mary Bailey (not sure of the author, I'll check and edit this post) I think. Just one of those coffee table A4 format things called 'Aquarium Fishes'. I've had that book for 30yrs! I still go back to it...