F8 X erythromycin - Safe to use?

[By_a_coo]

Hi all,

I came here to make sure if erythromycin is safe to use in a tank with F8s.

For a long time, my F8s' tank has been covered by blue green algae (BGA), that kind of algae freaks me out and I'm loosing the battle. I'm not seeing other recourse than to erythromycin.

It's a 53G (200L) tank, 50% weekly WC, very low ligh (~40W), DIY canister 529g/H (2000L/H)pump. Both F8s are fed 6X/week.
Water parameters:
Temp: 28°C (82,4°F)
SG: 1.005
Salinity: ~10 g/L
pH: 7.6
NH4/NO2 : zero
NO3: 5 mg/L

I'm afraid erythromycin affects my biological filtration, and I don't know how F8s handle the antibiotic since they are scaleless fish.
What do you guys think about it?

[Pufferpunk]

It will effect your filtration. Check to see if Boyd Chemiclean Red Slime Remover is good for BW/FW. Works great in my reef tank.

[RTR]

???? I respectfully disagree w/PP's comments.

Erythomycin does not have any effect on nitrification bacteria. They are gram-negative bugs. Erythromycin only hits gram-positive bugs, which includes BGA. SFAIK, resistance has not been found in BGA in tanks to date.

It will not affect your nitrification, but will knock out the BGA. Try to vacuum out the large majority of the slime mats (biofilm) to reduce the amount required to kill it all and lessen the total increased load on your biofilter. If you try to hit a heavily infested tank loaded with BGA, it likely will take repeated dosage, and the mass of dead bugs (which is non-trivial in tank terms) can be an overload load on your biofilter. But there is no direct effect on the nitrification bacteria.

I have used it multiple times without any nitrification disturbances. The antibiotics which are dangerous to nitrification are those effective against gram-negative bugs.

Then review the tank circulation - I know I harp on that all the time, but BGA is a master biofilm producer (it is a complex biofilm, involving multiple species of bacteria and other tiny lifeforms, and is so effective due to BGA's photosynthetic abilities that you can reduce the water column to effectively zero nutrient levels and the film can internally recycle nutrients to persist for weeks to months if not indefinitely once it is established), but current is its enemy. Good circulation makes BGA films difficult to establish, which is the biggest and easiest thing we can do to avoid it. It does not take white water levels of flow to block BGA establishing.

HTH

[By_a_coo]

The filter flow is 10X the tank volume, and BGA still thrive in there.

If meaty food was building organic compounds and 50% weekly WC are not helping, what else can I use to reduce those levels?

[J-P]

wow this topic seems eerily similar to viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24357&start=15


I would hate for RTR to repeat himself if in fact it was the same issue on 2 different threads at the same time.

The thread linked was FW this one is low end BW.. not sure if it is in fact the same issue.

[Pufferpunk]

???? I respectfully disagree w/PP's comments.

Heh, what do i know??? Always listen to the guru!

[By_a_coo]

@J-P - Please, don't take it as an offense but I did search for the subject before I posted and I didn't find any answer. I did read the thread you mentioned and that one was being discussed about the airstone benefits/biofilms/oxygenation. I felt resentful for what you said and I'm gonna explain it:

My doubt is if I should treat the tank with erythromicin due to blue green algae (that occurs mostly in decor/glass/substrate), but I was also in doubt if that antibiotic would be harmful for F8s.

I'm a fish keeper for some years, but I'm newbie when puffers are the subject (I just keep them for 2 years and I lost a lot of them in the very beggining).

I always listen to TPF members, because you have much more experience with puffers than me. But sometimes I feel some kind of discrimination. I don't know if it is because I'm brazilian or because my english is very poor and I have to use google translator most part of time, I also don't know if that gives the impression I have less ability to understand, I'm 27 and I really understand when advices are given and I really accept those.

If you were RTR and hated to repeat the same thing I really would beg your pardon.

I really know the forum rules, and I'm already apologizing before someone think I'm being rude but I didn't mean that.
And I like to thank everybody here for helping.

You all are gurus for me!

[~reefchik~]

wow this topic seems eerily similar to viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24357&start=15


I would hate for RTR to repeat himself if in fact it was the same issue on 2 different threads at the same time.

The thread linked was FW this one is low end BW.. not sure if it is in fact the same issue.

Welll.....The topic of surface biofilm was touched upon in the other thread, but this one is about erythromycin and should he use it to kill BGA in an F8 tank.

Just my 2c worth: I used it on a heavily planted FW tank, and it killed the BGA (horribly heavy infestation, because I tried everything else first!) within about 4 days. One water change later my tank sparkled, and the stuff hasn't come back. And water testing showed (as RTR told me) that it did not kill off my bacterial filtration either. So I highly recommend it for FW but don't have the expertise to say + or - about BW. I'm watching the thread with interest though, because some of the plants I used in the new BW are transplants from the FW tank I'm talking about.

[RTR]

Well, sometimes I do feel as if i keep saying the same things over and over again, especially on current and water maintenance, but I have been preaching those sermons a long time, and it does not take that much effort.

I was not aware of the translation issues - those can lead to some confusion and misunderstanding on both ends. TPF has a number of non-English-speaking members, and we generally can get the message across eventually - which is no worse that it is with native Engkish-speakers. So if any of you don't quite understand the point, please, please feel no guilt about asking for clarification - that is why we are all here, and we are all still learning.

On current: Factory-rated water output and tank volume turnovers and local current are unfortunately totally unrelated issues. Local currents are thing which must be visually checked. It is possible for a tank to have very high theoretical turnover rates, and still be loaded with "dead spots" or relatively stagnant areas. Variations in specific area within the tanks are something we can and do use for our own purposes (susch as for rest or sleeping areas, plant growth for plants requiring higher flow or lower flows, etc.). I have helped quite a number of folks with BGA issues just by getting them to watch the tank carefully - you can see dead spots or areas of low flow if you watch the tank carefully. BGA hates current above low levels - it is difficult to establish biofilms there, but low flow areas when filters are needing cleaning may be sufficient to start the biofilm and it may survive the increase after filter cleaning if the current is only moderate. But it is the establishment that is difficult. Once there, the biofilm tends to persist. Even in normally good-flow areas, the slow-down before cleaning is absolutely required may be enough. That is one reason why I preach regularly on cleaning mechanical filters before they really need it. Most filters do an adequate job biologically and aesthetically (water clarity), but most will not do anything but a fraction of the water clarity (which is closely related to flow) job near the end of their term before cleaning is absolutely required - that is the period when many tank issues arise. If I get folks to do filter upkeep more often than absolutely required, but well before it is really needed,,then my time is not wasted at all.

Erythromycin will not adversely affect the biofiltration (nitrification) IF you get as much of the BGA mass out by vacuuming before the antibiotic treatment. That is totally to avoid the biological overload from all that dead mass of biofilm. That is similar to the situation when a really dense cloudy water (either bacterial or algal) is treated by medications - the dead material uses up a lot of oxygen, and it overloads the the biofilter at the same time. Get the large majority out before you kill the rest and you will have no tank water upset from the treatment. It is not the antibiotic itself that is the problem after treatment, it is the huge bioload from all the dead material.

Do not hesitate to ask for any needed clarification.

HTH (Hope this helps)

[J-P]

I felt resentful for what you said .... But sometimes I feel some kind of discrimination.

I am sorry and apologize if I have offended. 100% no discrimination here because I didn't even know you were Brazilian

Anyway on to the meat of things The reason I thought the 2 topics were related:

I know I harp on that all the time, but BGA is a master biofilm producer (it is a complex biofilm, involving multiple species of bacteria and other tiny lifeforms, and is so effective due to BGA's photosynthetic abilities that you can reduce the water column to effectively zero nutrient levels and the film can internally recycle nutrients to persist for weeks to months if not indefinitely once it is established), but current is its enemy. Good circulation makes BGA films difficult to establish, which is the biggest and easiest thing we can do to avoid it. It does not take white water levels of flow to block BGA establishing.

and

If meaty food was building organic compounds and 50% weekly WC are not helping, what else can I use to reduce those levels?

As you can see, even in English we sometimes misinterpret / misunderstand. Which led me to believe that we were talking about the surface film described in the other thread, thus key word: "IF"..

Regarding BGA:

Cyanobacteria (Oscillitoria splendens)
Common Name(s): BGA
Algae Description: BGA is technically not an algae but more of a bacteria that has the capacity to photosynthesize just like other algae or plants.

It looks like a thin blue/green (it has also been reported as being black/purple) layer that can cover about everything in the tank or be localized on just the gravel for example. It comes off very easily, usually in thin slimy sheets.

Some people also say that it has a rotten smell if you take it out and smell it.
How to Treat: It has been postulated that the cause of a BGA breakout is lack of Nitrates in the aquarium.

But to get rid of the existing BGA, two different types of treatment are available:

- Erythromycin (antibiotic) treatment.
- 3 or 4 day *complete* blackout (tank covered, not just lights off).

Remember to make sure your Nitrate levels are above 0 mg/l (10-20 mg/l is best) or the BGA will just come back.

But, when in doubt follow RTR and yes, feel free to ask .. no one is going to jump on you for asking

[By_a_coo]

Thanks everyone for being so nice and helpful!

I already had/have FW tank, planted tank, marine tank, reef tank and I never had any BGA experience before. My SAP's tank had a focus of BGA at the very beginning but it disappeared by itself.

I only have BGA in my low-end BW where I keep my F8s.

Now I'm considering the erythromicin method because I already tried:

- Increasing flow (BTW, BGA only occurs in my tank where there's fast flow);
- Cleaning filter floss weekly;
- 70% WC/weekly to keep the water as pristine as I could;
- Charcoal;
- Purigen;
- 3 days blackout;

Nothing helped, but increased or decreased the BGA rate of growth.

Next water change I will remove all BGA I can and start the erythromicin method. How long do you suggest? I've read some people using the antibiotic for 3 days, 5 days, 7 days and some people using it up to 10 days.

[~reefchik~]

I can only relate what worked for me, but I used half the therapeutic dose listed on the package for disease in fish, and left it for 3 days before my first water change (on Day 4). I did not repeat the treatment, and as I said, no signs of it coming back since that time. Hope that helps

[Pufferpunk]

I've got it on the anubius leaves in my discus tank. Maybe I'll try that.

[RTR]

Pufferpunk - since discus don't like much current, that is not in the cards for your situation. If it is localized and stays just in a small area on some Anubias (where it wipes of easily with a vacuum hose nearby to suck it up easily) I'd try manual control first. If it shows signs of spreading, I would use the antibiotic. Are you breeding the discus? Antibiotic use can hit some heterotrophic bacteria which feeds the inverts that are second food for discus fry.

In general I use full-strength antibiotic after a water partial. I partial again after 3-4 days. I have not had to repeat, bur I do generally play with the current a bit (thinning plant overgrowth or adjusting current aim or flow) at the same time as the second partial.

HTH

[CarmenH]

I have a similar issue in my Frankie's (turgidus) tank. For whatever reason, whatever tank he's in, no matter what I do, BGA follows him. In desperation, I tried erythromycin a few months ago and after the first dose, he started acting "off". Lower activity than usual, with occasional frenetic, erratic dashes. And he didn't come to the front of the tank when I walked by. I did a big w/c and ran some carbon to remove the meds and he's been fine ever since. My params were fine, so I don't know but it scared the **** out of me!
I recently removed the anubias barteri that seemed to accumulate the most bga and dumped in a pile of guppy grass that I can simply throw out from time to time since it's so fast-growing anyhow. We'll see how that works out...