At a loss...after necropsy on my GSP's

[karilyn]

I'm hoping someone can shed some light on my problem...

Fairly new to puffer keeping, not newbie to fish keeping.

I have a 55 gallon tank for over a year, changed over to light brackish and planned for the arrival of my new babies. Even added bio-spira immediately with fishes just to be on the safe side.

After about 2 months, I lost my first fish. She was fine, acting normally eating well, no visible signs of anything wrong... the next morning she had expired. I took her into my fish lab and the gentleman there preformed a very detailed necropsy. It turned out that her liver had failed and while her gall bladder showed some signs of bile, however it was transparent and 10 times normal size. She was also very full of eggs,but her eggs were deformed and the cell walls were broken down completely...we both viewed this under a high powered microscope. We also did a scraping of her cells externally; no visible parasites of any kind and no internal parasites.

This morning my other succumbed as well. Another necropsy showed this one had liver failure as well and it's gall bladder was red, no signs of bile, no internal or external parasites.

I just can't figure this one out... Water tests are all fine, 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrite, Nitrates<10, ph 8.0, nicely planted tank, lots of places to hide, etc. Cacade 700 filter with sponge over intake valve to prevent uneaten anything from getting in and causing problems. Great diet...I even started my own pond snail hatchery months before arrival of my babies, varied their diet with mysis shrimp, brine shrimp, blood worms, live tubifex worms. Frozen foods always thawed first in tank water before feeding. Water changes 50% weekly, water tests done every other day (okay, I'm a little paranoid, I guess)

I don't spray anything in this room or use any cleaning supplies anywhere near tank. Even stopped wearing lotion and perfume months ago just to be on the safe side. Is it possible they were over-exposed to too much anti-biotics, anti-fungal medications after capturing? Or the possibilty of exposure to freezing temps during shipping?

Please help! I am just so sad and don't know what to do. Feeling like a real failure. After managing a 10,000 gallon koi pond and 3 -700 gallon breeding tanks, I'm starting to think I'm not up to the challenge. Am I missing something? Really heartbroken today...
Thank you for listening.

[tekknoschtev]

Wow - first, let me compliment the dedication of doing an autopsy. As sad as it is that the puffer died, I find that somewhat interesting.

As for the tanks - I've never trusted Bio Spira but thts me. Aside from that it seems like you really are doing everything correctly (and even some believ ein Bio Spira, so that might not be it). I'd reccomend trying a fishless cycle in the tank (look on google, there are several techniques).

Also, another thought - all of the GSPs I have seen available at the LFSs were in freshwater. Perhaps the stress of being shipped to the store, being thrown about the store, being bagged up to go with you, being put in a new environment AND having a little bit of salt to deal with is the problem. What kind of salt are you using?

I suppose shipping during winter could be a problem, but to combat that I always make sure the fish are healthy, eating, and have been at the LFS for ~2 weeks. Just a suggestion.

It really does seem like you've got the spirit though! Good luck!

[ChesapeakeSwellfish]

Karilyn, please don't beat yourself up too much. It sounds like you provided a good home to your pets and were very careful with their care. Sometimes, fish die in spite of excellent care.

I do necropsies and they are often "inconclusive", even though some abnormalities can be found. You don't say how large your puffers were, but it sounds like they were mature females. Gross necropsies allow better guesses and without tissue analyses & histology, it sounds like the first one might have been egg-bound ? Some fish can absorb eggs that are not extruded - I don't know about puffers.

The real difficulty with necropsies is the separation of primary causation vs secondary problems, usually infections. Its hard to say if the liver & gall bladder problems caused the death, or if they failed after some other problem such as a compromised immune system.

These fish are wild-caught and we try not to think about the conditions/harsh treatments they have endured before we obtain them. Unfortunately, until fish come with detailed and true chain-of-custody forms listing their history, we never know.

[karilyn]

I really appreciated hearing back from the two of you...I feel better...it's hard watching someone dissect your pet while you watch and try to hold back the tears.

Let's see...I did forget one thing...like a dork . I did have a problem with my well water. e. coli in well head due to heavy rains here... but it was determined that my puffers were probably not exposed to very much e.coli. I called a friend who is a marine biologist in San Diego and he said with natural enviromental flows from hillsides etc. into estuaries that bacteria aren't a common problem...unless, of course they have external abrasions etc.

My LFS is really great and tied closely to our university here in town, so we get lots of extra help and advice...everyone that works for him has a degree in Marine Biology or Fish/Wildlife. The puffers were sent here from Sacramento in very light brackish water, my LFS always keeps a low dose brackish tank (with Instant Ocean) which I really appreciate, I'm lucky to have such a great place to go for fish. I tried to duplicate his perimeters in his tank as closely as possible. You are right...I should have waited longer...I was just anxious to bring them home after waiting so long. Tank was fully cycled too...bio-spira was just insurance...I put it right in filter, but maybe that was wrong or it was bad??? It arrived in a frozen gel pack so... I assumed it was okay...I had it delivered overnight.

Not sure how old they were, really thought they were juveniles in that they were right at 1" in length. Interesting thought on the egg absorbtion though...had that problem with a koi once (had to check my records...yes, I'm getting old...)...it makes sense, but I can't compare that to other puffer with no eggs...They seemed really lovey-dovey with each other not nippy or mean at all...in fact, Bro D Puff seemed major sad without G Baby (maybe my imagination, but even my husband said so...)

One would like to have all the answers...but this might just remain a mystery...
Thanks for the kind thoughts and I really appreciate your imput!

[PetPirate]

Hi Karilyn.

I admire your dedication. There are a few avenues you could look into.

Did you purchase the tank new or second-hand? Did you ever medicate the tank for anything? While it was FW or BW? Ditto for the snail breeding tank.

How do you process your water for water changes? What is your water change procedure? Walk me through it.

John

[Pufferpunk]

I have a feeling whatever care you did for the puffers, had nothing to do with their liver problems. More so, the care they had before you received them. Could be, that they were fed a diet of feeder fish in a holding tank for a while. That might do it. I had a T suvattii that only lived with me for about 6 weeks. In autopsy, it's liver was yellow & hard as a rock.

[tekknoschtev]

Wow, that is a pretty killer LFS. I think that if the ones around here required even a highschool education and a masters in common-friggin-sense things would be so much better but a DEGREE! Holy smokes. And then having them shipping in slightly brackish water to arrive to what? ANOTHER BRACKISH TANK! Geeze.

I dont know about biospira enough to comment on its effectiveness beyond the fact that some people like it, some dont. With a properly cycled tank I would believe Bio Spira isnt necessary but as I said, I have no clue :p

Truth be told, its sad to see this happening in general, but especially to people like you who have jumped through hoops and have had all the odds on the best side for you. It seems like you have researched this, and have had everything pointing to ALL GO for puffers!

[YBeNormal]

With a properly cycled tank I would believe Bio Spira isnt necessary

You are correct. BioSpira is used to cycle a tank, so it wouldn't make much sense to use it if the tank is already cycled!

I also prefer fishless cycling using ammonia and maybe some filter media or substrate from an established tank when I have time. I would not hesitate to use BioSpira in a pinch though. It does work if properly maintained while in storage and when used according to directions.

I agree with CS and PP. There is a good chance that these fish had hidden health issues when they were purchased.

karilyn,

Don't let this discourage you. It sounds like you were doing everything right. If you still have puffers or are going to try again though, I would recommend dropping the brine shrimp from the menu. They are mostly water and there are many other foods that are much more nutritious (and you have several of them on your list already).

[karilyn]

Thank you all for responding...your imput is so helpful and encouraging.

Let me see if I can answer your questions...

By the way Jeni...I want you to know that I read all of your articles before even getting started toward puffer care...and they are terrific! Everyone who's considering owning these little guys should be required to read them.

Let's see...Tank was new... a gift from my husband for my birthday...go hubby!!!!!! Fishless cycling to start. Tank was never treated with any kind of meds...water changes procedures are as follows.

Substrate gravel is syphoned cleaned and we take out all plants (all 22 of them) and decor, vacuum EVERYTHING! Then we remove our 50%, haul it away except reserving some for filter media clean out on every other water change...I stepped it up from every 3 weeks because I thought that was better since they're a little messier. Internal sponge on intake also swooshed in removed tank water...then it's off to the sink for our "bucket brigade". I get water up to matching temperature, add the Instant Ocean per gallon (some of my buckets are different sizes so salt added is relative to bucket volume) dissolve fully and then add it to tank with the pitchers. I keep all my tank stuff in a large Tupperware container so it can't be contaminated from anything. I have two hydrometers, so I'm sure where I'm at in tank at all times. Do I need to do something else?

During our well water issue; I still had to do a water change and didn't know what to do as they dumped a great deal of chlorine in holding tank, so we had to spend $1000 to raise well head and flush all the lines in the whole house for a whole day (Man! was I ever tired of hearing water running ALL DAY LONG!) My LFD sold me some water(at cost, what a sweetie! ) bottled that he gets from our local health food co-op. He uses it for all his amphibians and he recommended it highly, so I figured it was my only option couldn't risk our nasty water. Well water was re-tested and water was fine. I did add some Prime just to be on the safe side during next water change(kinda pictured nasty chlorine clinging to things...).

My snail hatchery has no substrate, bio wheel, small heater, some plants and I feed them carrots and kale and collard greens... all organic. I do an 80% water change once a week because they doodie alot! Lots of clutches...so I think they're happy. If there something I'm doing wrong please feel free to let me have it!

I noticed they weren't really "digging" the Hikari brine shrimp anyway so I was thinking about dropping it all together...They prefer their chow "on the hoof" so to speak...thanks for pointing that out to me.

I'd like to try puffers again...kinda grieving now, but don't want to lose my cycle. Currently tank only has 5 ghost shrimp (I added those for a meal and they only took out the smallest one...the rest were friends..I know... that's cheesy. I'm just worried that they can't maintain my biology properly and I'll be forced to re-cycle tank all over again. Today is my normal water change day....Should I proceed with "Bucket Brigade Night" or leave it alone.????

Thank you all for your patience! This site is so helpful!
Karilyn

[ChesapeakeSwellfish]

Your maintenance looks perfect. I add salt to my change buckets & aerate overnight, making minor corrections the next day by adding either a tiny bit more salt or water. You may want to upgrade to either a refractometer or salinity meter in the future (next birthday gift?).

Do you have a submersible well pump? The only times we've had chlorine added to our well was when it was first installed, and then 2 months later when the pump failed (supposedly struck by lightning) requiring the line to be pulled and pump replaced. Then we just ran the water as you described. Why was the chlorine added in your case?

You are the first one I've seen here to feed your snails all organic food. Looks like you've gone the extra mile for your fish (and snails).

[Peregrine]

I would not bother with a water change unless your nitrates are seriously high (40-50 ). or if your PH or KH start to drop dramatically...Any decomposing matter will help maintain the cycle
To keep tank cycled, you could:
1)over feed the shrimp, and let the uneaten food decompose(few water changes)
2)get more shrimp
3)or add a few drops of ammonia/10 gal daily (this is what I would do)...I think towards the end of my fishless cycle I was up to around 15ml in 55 gal -but that depends on the concentration of the ammonia..get a ammonia test kit, and add some ammonia-test, and repeat until you get a level of 2.4-3.0 (it will get consumed within 24 hrs) (read the fishless cycling articles) at that level your bacteria levels should be strong enough to handle most anything you will introduce...make sure to do a 80%+ water change before you add anything to reduce nitrAtes

[ChesapeakeSwellfish]

I don't know how many shrimp you need to maintain a cycle, but they are interesting enough that (IMO) I'd certainly keep them.

I've fed tanks ammonia also (much cheaper than another pack of Bio-spira), but if you have the shrimp in there, keep an eye on ammonia conc, as Peregrine said, but also pH. The % ammonia that exists as the toxic "free ammonia" increases with temp and pH.

[karilyn]

Again...most excellent imput! Feeling very supported...

As far as the well thing went...holding tank and well were replaced two years ago when we remodeled...not sure why but they placed it below ground level(duh) and in a concrete casing...so when we got six inches of rain in about 3 days it filled up with ground water and well head started pumping in the ground water (we live out in a heavily wooded area, lots of deer and wildlife)...at least that was how it was explained to me. The health dept. told them to put the chlorine in...I was against it, but they had the final say...I even had an EPA guy here as a "ride-along"...not sure who invited him...felt kind of invasive...

I appreciate the advice on keeping the cycle/tank up and running...I agree the ghost shrimp are fun...three of them are about ready to deliver...does everything get pregnant at my house? Probably have to go out and set up another tank for their babies

Again thanks so much for all the kind words and your gift of time,very appreciated.
Karilyn

[ChesapeakeSwellfish]

Karilyn - adding chlorine was a good health practice once that groundwater contaminated your well. We once had a shallow well called a "point well" (lengths of steel pipe with a screened point at one end) driven into the ground to about 15' at a rented cottage, and I was always getting ear infections from Pseudomonas bacteria. My worst infection from that well blossomed while we were on our two week honeymoon in Nova Scotia. When the ears were oozing green, I broke down & saw a Canadian doctor, who lectured us about the wisdom of Canada's socialized medicine instead of taking a culture and prescribed the wrong anti-biotic. By the time I got treatment 3 weeks later, damage had been done and I have scar tissue in my ears - my wife insists its affected my hearing (sometimes that's convenient). Since 1981, I put alcohol in my ears daily.

Sorry to get so wildly off-topic.

[karilyn]

Y-OUCH! That sounds terrible..I have never heard of a "point well" sounds interesting but probably not the healthiest way to go from the sound of things...glad you don't have that issue anymore...terrible to have such severe ear infections particularily on your honeymoon

I love Maryland...you are so lucky to live in such a great state! My brother and sis-in-law used to live in Gaithersburg area (worked for Discovery Channel) and my best times were spent with them going to Camden Yard and eating blue crabs at some great restaurant on the Chesapeake Bay...served with mallets and newspaper um and strawberry daiquiris...ah memories...

Can you tell me the science behind using a refractometer? Don't mean to be so ignorant...just really curious and would love to get one if you feel it would be helpful.

Supposed to go meet a client...ahhhhhhhh shucks work!
Karilyn