Internal parasite?

[emartin]

Recently my juvenile Fahaka Puffer (tetraodon lineatus) has been getting very thin.

While he is still very active and eats a lot, he doesn't seem to gain weight.

Still a juvenile, about 2-3". Currently in a 30g tank but will get a 120g very very soon (already have the tank, just occupied at the moment).

Currently eats krill, frozen (thawed) shrimp (small stuff, omegasea brand), bloodworms.

Nitrates are a little up but not bad (mostly because I increased feedings recently when I noticed he was thinning out), but I doubt that's the cause. Going to do a couple water changes anyway to be sure.

Water chemistry is fine, pH is 8 and hard water (baking soda, lime, and epsom salt combo).


Does it sound like an internal parasite to you? Or wait until after the water changes and give him a nice live earthworm and see if he gains his wait then?

OR...do you think he is just ready/having a growth spurt and I need to feed it more and more (I feed usually every other day once what it can eat in a few minutes).

Anti-parasitic meds I have available immediately:
Metronidasole
QuICK Cure (used it once years ago in an emergency dose, still have that bottle somewhere)
Clout (worried it may be too strong, but it is a great broad anti-parasite drug...)

And I have access to pretty much any other anti-parasitic med.

In case you think it is bacterial (I doubt it), I have Triple Sulfa, Furan-2, Binox, Oxytetracycline hydrochloride, and Salt.



What do you guys think? Think he contracted an internal parasite?


OR...do you think he is just ready/having a growth spurt and I need to feed it more and more (I feed usually every other day once what it can eat in a few minutes).

I am seeing a lot of waste on the glass tank bottom so I don't think he is having stringy feces or anything like some cichlids get when they have internal parasites.

I just want to be safe than sorry.

~Ed

[emartin]

Doing water changes anyway soon but let me know if I should just increase feedings or if I should start treating for possible parasites.

Metronidasole is a very mild (to fish) medication...at least to my african cichlids. If you guys think I should start dosing that let me know. I don't see how it could hurt.

[pufferpuggirl]

Personally, because your little guy is still fairly small and he's growing, I would be feeding him daily. I would not start skipping days until he's older and bigger.

Try feeding him daily for a couple weeks and see if that makes any difference. I give mine raw jumbo shrimp (cut up of course), cockles, mussels (again, cut up), snails and earthworms.

I think if you begin feeding yours daily for about 2 weeks and you don't see any improvement in his weight, then I would consider doing a worming treatment. I would suggest the Jungle Parasite Clear fizz tabs because it's got 3-4 medications in it instead of just one, so it's going to hit whatever parasite is there extra hard - if it is a parasite situation.

Good luck!

[emartin]

Well, it stopped eating today.

I netted it out on suspicion and it turns out it's beak overgrew a bit.

I didn't think he needed more crunchy foods yet because of his size and he never had problems eating krill, bloodworms, earthworms, etc until now.

He is very emaciated. Should I try and use something to cut the beak or just put it down (I put down my tropical fish using icewater, they just go catatonic and roll over and die)?

Sucks this happened... Next time around I'll have to set up that snail breeding tank sooner than later.


ALSO, my water has a lot of calcium from limestone in it. Could that have helped lead to excessive beak growth? Should next time I keep the pH around neutral rather than alkaline?

[bigfatfish]

Cut those teeth & give him a chance before euthanasing him. Please!

[Pufferpunk]

I cut back an emaciated fahaka's beak & it recovered nicely. Where's there's life, there's hope.

[pufferpuggirl]

I can't help but feel a bit sorry for your puffer ... that you would seriously think of putting him down instead of cutting his teeth. Please give him another chance, he deserves to live.

[emartin]

He's VERY emaciated at this point.

I do feel really bad about this that I didn't catch the beak growth earlier (recently I've been focusing more attention on a new breeding wildcaught colony of Buccochromis rhoadesi I bought a month ago) and started feeding fiddler crab legs or small snails or something.


I know what tool I'd need to trim the beak, but how would I do it? I do NOT have immediate access to bag buddies (which has clove oil in it) or clove oil by itself.

The net I've been using is actually a very soft brine shrimp net that stays wet (almost spongey) when removed from the water. Should I just try and gently hold the puffer and go for it and hope he doesn't puff up?

Do I just trim the top part of the beak or both parts (let me rephrase, replacing "beak" with teeth. Do I just trim the top tooth or both teeth or just the bottom tooth?)

I'm worried about stressing him because he is resting on the bottom a lot now trying to conserve energy (or from lack of energy).


I'm thinking of crushing up some frozen shrimp and using a feeding syringe to force feed him. Should I do that, or just focus on getting the beak trimmed as fast as possible and hope for the best? He's definitely interested in food.

[pufferpuggirl]

I would definitely NOT use clove oil!! My friend never sedates my puffers when he trims their teeth and you'd be surprised how easy it goes. What he does, is to net the puffer over the tank, and then hold the puffer in something soft, I actually have cut sleeves off t-shirts and used them because the wet cotton is soft and holds the puffer nicely. Hold the puffer gently and trim the teeth. If both sets need trimming, then do both sets, however if it's just the top teeth that are too long, then just trim them. If he starts to puff while you're doing this, then dunk him back in and he will usually exhale, but mainly they seem to just allow the trimming. It should not take too long to do it and I don't think it's any more stressful on your puffer than him starving to death.

Do the teeth and then he will be able to eat. Just don't let him have too much food at once if he's very thin. He might over-stuff himself and that would not be good.

I'm not being nasty here .... but how could you neglect your puffer? They are such endearing little fish. I hope that you will pay more attention to him after you sort his teeth.

I am very interested in hearing how everything turns out, so please update us once you've done the trimming to let us know how it's gone. We are here for you if you need any more help and/or information.

[J-P]

From what I have read here .. clove oil is a no go. MS-222 is the way to go. I have never had to use the product myself and not on a fish that size.

I would try without tranqs first and if that proves impossible then use the MS-222. JMO

[emartin]

I would definitely NOT use clove oil!! My friend never sedates my puffers when he trims their teeth and you'd be surprised how easy it goes. What he does, is to net the puffer over the tank, and then hold the puffer in something soft, I actually have cut sleeves off t-shirts and used them because the wet cotton is soft and holds the puffer nicely. Hold the puffer gently and trim the teeth. If both sets need trimming, then do both sets, however if it's just the top teeth that are too long, then just trim them. If he starts to puff while you're doing this, then dunk him back in and he will usually exhale, but mainly they seem to just allow the trimming. It should not take too long to do it and I don't think it's any more stressful on your puffer than him starving to death.

Do the teeth and then he will be able to eat. Just don't let him have too much food at once if he's very thin. He might over-stuff himself and that would not be good.

I'm not being nasty here .... but how could you neglect your puffer? They are such endearing little fish. I hope that you will pay more attention to him after you sort his teeth.

I am very interested in hearing how everything turns out, so please update us once you've done the trimming to let us know how it's gone. We are here for you if you need any more help and/or information.

Glad to know I don't need the clove oil, all my local pharmacies don't carry it and to special order an 1/8th ounce bottle it is $37usd...definitely not paying that.

With cuticles, would the slanted tipped ones work or should I get a pair that has a flat edge/trimmer? The price difference is $11 for the slanted tip ones, $19 for the other.

About the puffers teeth overgrowing/neglect, I wasn't really neglecting the puffer itself. I just never bothered to look at its mouth since it was eating krill and bloodworms and mussell meat and earthworms fine. It wasn't until recently when it started getting thin (it WAS still eating) that I got worried and thought maybe it was an internal parasite because no matter how big of a meal (several pieces of krill) I gave him he wasn't gaining weight so I thought either internal parasite or it is trying to have a massive growth spurt.

You guys suggested it was just a growth spurt in progress and to increase feedings. Well today he wasn't eating at all and I found out why.

So it wasn't pure neglect. I am guilty of not paying closer attention to the beak but since he was eating fine I didn't think of it. Keep in mind I have lots of other fish tanks to take care of (as well as hens, ducks, and turkeys in the backyard) so I don't often get a chance to study the fish tank to look for problems. If the fish appear healthy and are eating I don't bother worrying about it. Right now I have a 265g, 120g, two 125g, two 29g, four 75g, 60g, and a bunch more tanks I am taking care of not including the puffer's 30g tank (he's (if he lives, and I hope he does) getting the 120g to himself in a few weeks.

I'll have to net out the uneaten food and add some ChlorAm-X in there for now to counter any ammonia build up from the food and tomorrow I'll see about getting his beak trimmed.

[JRC3]

I've seen videos on youtube and I would do a "puffer dentistry" search there. And I've read the same thing about clove oil and heard stories that if using it more than once or taking more than like 30 seconds it causes brain damage.

After cleaning the uneaten food to lower the ammonia are you going to also do a big water change?

Good luck with ur puffer as well as ur MTS. *haha, big wink*

[emartin]

LOL no I never had MTS and never plan to have it in my tanks. The only snail infestation I have is in my 285g's overflows and sump, and that's just pond snails (the really small ones, useless as puffer food) and they're only there because the clown loaches can't reach them (besides the cichlids that also eat the snails).

I did find a guy sort-of local that breeds ramshorn snails so I was thinking of either buying some from him to use as breeders or see if I can work up a deal with him to buy a bunch every month at a discount to use as feeders.

And no I am not doing a water change tonight, too late and the chloram-x will take care of any ammonia (renders it non-toxic to all fish and invertebrates (it's the only fda approved water conditioner btw)) and isn't thiosulfate based. I actually use it a lot when bagging fish for auctions and so on since sedation is rarely necessary.

Tomorrow after (or before, but definitely tomorrow) I trim the beak he'll have crystal clear water with some carbon to make it extra clean and sterile for him and I'll give him something soft to eat like bloodworms and try krill or snails after a few days of feeding bloodworms.

So as long as he doesn't die overnight (seems unlikely, and it would suck a lot if he did because I rather liked this guy) and doesn't die from stress from his "dentistry" tomorrow he should be fine I suppose.

Thanks for the advice everyone. I'm glad to know I don't need clove oil now. I suppose that is only necessary for the big puffers like porcupinefish and mbu and so on that can hurt you if they puff up...

[emartin]

ALSO, with the cuticles.

Do the slanted-tip ones work good/best, or should I get the flat-ended ones? (the flat ones resemble a super super small pair of wire cutters, they're like actual scissors I guess is a good way to describe them).

I'm concerned the cheaper slanted-tip ones won't work since those seem to be more designed for pulling/tugging rather than cutting like the more expensive pair is.

[JRC3]

*laughing*

Sorry, I meant MTS as in "Multi Tank Syndrome".

And yeah, trumpet snails aren't good at all.