Not a happy GSP.....

[rooster]

Stressful times! Hi members,
The hard facts. These numbers are as of today and pretty average for my tank and do not vary much, except the Nitrate which is sometimes about 40.
Gh = 180, Kh = 240
pH = 7.0, Nitrite = 0, Nitrate = 80
salinity = 1.003
tank size is 240 litres, about 60 gallons with CO2 injection but will stop that soon and add oxygen.
I have had the tank for 1.5 years, as a planted tank. Had 2 gsp's for about a year, happy inmates and get along with the other residents with no incidents. Currently have 2 blue gouramis, 5 denison barbs, 6 harlequins, 7 Siamese flying foxes, 12 neon tetras.
I do a 50 litre (15 gallon) weekly water change and only chemicals are a Biotopol water conditioner (for cholorine removal) and ferropol (for the plants). I feed once daily, mussels and cockle bits (flakes for the other fish). there is always a large cockle shell in the tank for midnight hunger pains! Sometimes throw in some feeder shrimp and snails.

In short I have a very happy tank. My gsp's are getting a little bigger now and I want to change to a brackish tank as will suit them better. About 4 weeks ago I started to add a little sea salt to gradually raise the salinity to about 1.010. It is currently about .003 as I do not want to kill my bacteria. When the plants die I will model a brackish tank.
My 2 gsp's started the same size but one has by far outgrown the other and is about 3 inches now, the other about 2 inches. The big chap, Ipod, has always had colour changes and often has a black belly. He normally eats like any carnivore however in the last week he has not eaten at all and is very, very docile. He lies on the bottom of the tank, almost white and sometimes with a bent tail. I have seen this behaviour with him once before but for only a day or so, this time it seems far more serious. when he does move, he looks disorientated and does not move around for long.

I have read plenty of your forums but cannot find what could be wrong with my little guy. The other puffer, Shuffle, is as happy as he could be. White full belly and chomps on his snails! All the other fish seem fine. I have studied the big guy but cannot spot any bad poop or gill problems. He has not lost too much weight but his belly is getting flat, only to suddenly swell up and then go flat again in like a minute!? Also I cannot see his bottom teeth, is this usual? His top teeth look normal and are not too long.

Sorry for the long post, appreciate any advice! Doing small daily water changes as per forum advice and adding a little salt to keep the sg at .003 ish.
thanks in advance!

[trekenk]

Hi Roaster and welcome to The Puffer Forum. You need to do water changes now with a Nitrate reading of 80 your nitrate should never read above 20 and lower than that would be better. Most people do 50% water changes weekly. You are also very overstocked. Each of your GSP should have 30 gallons min. for themselves and be in high brackish water.Puffers are very sensitive to bad water more so than other fish. Keep doing water changes until you get that nitrate down.
Here is a great article to read.
library/puffers-in-focus/an-introductio ... d-puffers/

[pufferpuggirl]

Yes, I definitely think you need to up those water changes to at least 50%, maybe a bit more with such a high nitrate reading. I've naturally got high nitrates (out of the tap at 40ppm), but mine has never gotten as high as 80.
And trekenk is right, unfortunately you are overstocked and that isn't helping the situation any. Unless I missed it, I don't see an ammonia reading. Can you test for that?
Some of what you've described sounds like what puffers do when they sleep. They curl themselves up and often get very dark. Try not to read too much into the belly colour because lots of different things affect what colour their belly is. My Ceylons have a dark belly when they are hungry, but as soon as they eat, it goes white again. And there are a number of different reasons why the belly goes dark, so that in itself is nothing to get too excited about.
If I were you, I'd start giving your GSP's a little bit of different foods. Try offering raw prawns (I get a big bag from Farm Foods), and you might also offer frozen bloodworm soaked in vitamins. Some of my puffers enjoy cockles too, and the shell is good for their teeth. I also regularly feed earthworms to my group, but not as a staple, more as a dessert if you will.
I'm really not sure what's up with Ipod ... maybe just having a hunger strike, which my puffers do with regularity. Keep an eye on him and try and see if you notice any unusual poop. I think it's a wait and see situation, unless someone else can come up with something more for you to try.

[purplecandle]

If the belly is swelling and then flat a few seconds later..sounds like he might be stressed and puffing...

Do you vacuum the tank regularly?

You said you leave food in over night??


Pufferpuggirl...

Worms for dessert!

[pufferpuggirl]

Definitely not the type of dessert I enjoy, but my puffers sure do!

[rooster]

thanks for all your replies and yes sorry, forgot to mention the ammonia, its 0.
Appreciate my tank is over stocked and plan to remove most of the other fish during the change over to brackish. oh gosh darn, ma! they are hard to catch!

why would my nitrate be so high then? I normally do a weekly water change and vacuum at the same time. Currently doing daily (10-15%) water changes as per advice from this forum. Will this get the nitrate down? I will sure focus more on this in the future!
I figured if I have no nitrite then my bacteria has survived the change in salinity and is functioning normally!?

only food left overnight is a full cockle shell or 2. its not just his dark belly but also he goes white on top and his spots all but vanish for some time! I avoid earthworms as I use chemicals on my grass but will try a more varied diet! when he first ate a mussel he almost took my arm off so perhaps he is bored of them now!

any thoughts on his bottom teeth? I am worried he has damaged them and cannot eat!
again, thanks for all your help and advice. cannot wait to get home and give him some tlc!

[pufferpuggirl]

He may very well be bored of the mussels. One of my puffers decided he wanted earthworms, and nothing but earthworms, and then he stopped eating them altogether and won't eat them now, but will eat other foods. Puffers are strange fish and I don't think we will ever understand them completely.
Doing those water changes should get your nitrate down. Have you checked your tap water yet, just to find out what the nitrate is coming out? I would do that, as I mentioned before, mine is very high and yours may be also.
Just to say, I buy my earthworms at the local angling shop, so there's no need to dig in the backyard or worry about pesticides.
As to the bottom teeth .... if they were overgrown I would think that could cause him to have problems with eating .... but I think you need to have a better look so you can see if they are still there or what the situation is.

[Pufferpunk]

Currently doing daily (10-15%) water changes as per advice from this forum.

I don't any regular posters here who would recommend <50% weekly WC.

[Flutter]

Or even 50%+ daily if necessary...

[rooster]

Hi again,
puffer is slightly happier today but still not eating. did another water change, ph is 7.5, no nitrites and nitrates are down to about 50-60.
I did not realise I could do such large daily water changes, will up it tomorrow. is there any potential harm with such large water changes?
checked my tap water, its only got a nitrate level of 20! hardly believable!
going to get some earthworms, thanks for the tip! we have some angling shops nearby! shew, this chap sure seems to make me sweat when he wants a diet change!!
I took some photos of his teeth, but the file is too large. Is there any other way to post them? His top teeth are pretty much normal and remain about the length you will see.
thank for all the help

ps: apologies for the mistaken information about water changes. I only meant I'd learnt about daily water changes from this forum, the 10-15% was my idea of a good daily amount! I see now that I can do like 50% which I will do tomorrow if the nitrate is still high!

[Pufferpunk]

Your nitrate should be at most, what your tap shows (maybe slightly higher by the end of the week). Most of my tanks I do 75-90% weekly.

[pufferpuggirl]

Since your nitrate isn't coming out of the tap very high, it would make me wonder why it's so high in your tank.
I don't believe there's any harm to be done by doing large water changes, as long as you use a water conditioner in the "new" water and try and get the temperature of the water as close to what it is in the tank. You definitely need to get those nitrates down though.
In regards to the photo/file that's too large, there's a website that will resize the photo/file for you (http://www.iresize.com). It's easy to use and will give you 3 options for resizing.

[rooster]

Hi again and thanks for your responses!
Nitrate is down to 40, did a large water change today. GSP still not eating but looking more active.
thanks for that file conversion link pufferpuggirl, worked a charm!

please see his bottom teeth and let me know what you all think?
thanks

[purplecandle]

That is one unique looking puffer!

If that is a GSP, I have never seen that variation...

Teeth look ok to me..

[pufferpuggirl]

I admit, he is different looking, but the teeth seem okay. Can't remember if I asked or not, but have you tried an earthworm with him? My puffers have a very hard time resisting worms, they love them. Try one and see what happens.

Glad the link worked for you.