Shakey F8

Rider · Post by **Rider** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:03 am

I set up a 29 gallon tank just over a week ago for a single F8. It has crushed coral substrate and an emperor HOB filter. It was cycled with Bio-Spira.

Ammonia - 0
Nitrites -0
Nitrates - 0
PH - 8.0
Temp. - 80

F8 is being fed blood worms, krill, raw shell-on shrimp pieces and snails. He has a great appetite and is about 1.5" long without the tail. I have purchased instant ocean, but have not started raising salinity. I ordered a refractometer, which should be in next week. I added some rock and alot more artificial plants a couple of days ago. I have a 92 gallon bowfront with cichlids and a 15 gallon with 3 dwarf puffers and a shrimp clean-up crew.......so not new to fish but fairly new to puffers and definitely new to brackish.

I might have overdone it on the background info.........The last couple of days my puffer lingers on the bottom close to the glass and it's like he has chills or the shakes and his coloring goes really dull. He sometimes will jerk. Is he just stressed from all the new additions to his home? Could there be a health issue? He's not sleeping, because he is aware of me there. I hope I'm not wasting your time and just over-reacting, but if there is a problem I would rather catch it sooner than later.

Yvonne

ChesapeakeSwellfish · Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:21 am

What you describe does not sound like normal behavior. It also sounds like you've done everything right. Was he in FW at the LFS and is he in FW now? At his size, he should be in brackish water and I think you can start bringing it up if he's in FW. If you are waiting for the refractometer to begin, you can probably calculate how much salt to use. I'd go slowly, both for him and for your newly established biofilter. A little salt won't hurt and may help. Do you have marine salt? Calculate what the directions indicate for your volume for full-strength sea water. Full SW is 35 ppt - you want about 1ppt right now if he is in FW, so use only 3% of the amount of salt indicated for full SW. This will give you about 1ppt salt and the fish will be more comfortable. This way, you can be sure you won't overdue it since you don't have your refractometer. Once you get it, you can then increase the salinity to 2ppt. That is very low brackish, but I assure you that it is much better for your fish than FW, and let's hope it is enough to bring him out of the doldrums.

Post by **Pufferpunk** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:37 am

Did you add the fish the same time as the B-S? Are you sure it was refrigerated all the time? You might want to test the water elseware, just to be sure. A water change couldn't hurt. Is he still eating?

ChesapeakeSwellfish · Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:45 am

I just did the math for the Coralife salt that I use. Assuming that you have 25 gallons of water in your tank, 0.375 cup of salt would bring it up to 1ppt. If you prefer weight, that is 0.2175 lb (3.5 oz) of salt. Check the math for your particular salt brand - it should be close. Best to do this via a partial (~50%) water change.

Rider · Post by **Rider** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:49 am

He was in freshwater at the LFS and I bought him the day after he arrived. I noticed a very slight rise in ammonia on Wednesday and did a 50% water change and added Marineland White Diamond Ammonia neutralizing crystals to my filter. I'm on city water and the ammonia is really high in tap water right now. I use Kent ammonia detox to treat my tap water. As I was speculating on what the problem might be, I went and bought Instant ocean tonight. I had decided I could add at a lower level just to get it started.

He was added with the bio-spira and was doing really well until last evening. I've been monitoring my water closely. Should I mix tonight and add in the morning doing a 50% water change, or should I do this tonight?

Here's a question.....When wholesalers take puffers from brackish water, do they keep them in brackish, then send them to LFS's who put them in freshwater, or do the wholesalers keep them in freshwater as well? Just wondering....I am sure these little guys have to withstand a tremendous amount of stress before they get to us.

This site is incredible. I have spent hours and hours reading posts and library articles. Thanks so much for your dedication of time, patience and your effort to take care of the fishes......

demented_lullaby · Post by **demented_lullaby** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:43 am

Do you do the test after you add the ammonia detox? I've found that with Prime at least I get bad readings if I test for ammonia after using it. They also mention it on their site. It's odd for tap water to have ammonia since chlorine is used to get rid of these kinds of things.

Your right, the articles and the board is a great place to do homework at. I can't wait until I'm ready 100% to go pick up my puffer

Rider · Post by **Rider** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:43 am

I found it a little strange about the tap water. I've just noticed a real strong smell in the water and decided to do some baseline tests on it. I need to check with my neighbors and see if they have noticed it. I don't think it is the problem with my F8. I really believe the transition to brackish will help him immensely.

Congrats on getting your F8! I love my little puff. He has no problem eating anything and he is so interactive. My dwarves are cuties and I enjoy the interaction between them, but I really wanted a larger puffer. I'm also enjoying the learning process, when it comes to a species I'm not real familiar with and setting up the brackish tank. Keep me posted on your new addition.....

Y.

demented_lullaby · Post by **demented_lullaby** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:53 am

I'd give your water company a call as well. There is a safe limit on nitrates(it can kill infants if high enough.. even so I would suppose that ammonia must be the same. I'm not really sure how ingesting ammonia effects people but I wouldn't suppose very well

. If there really is a lot of ammonia in the water that could be a bit of a worry. Definaetly check with your neighbours right away. I'm sure getting the salt up some will help a bunch. You'll have a friend for a long time

.

I can understand wanting a larger puffer, same reason I'm getting an f8 next week(thanks for the congrats ^^, they seem like wonderful fish). One day I'd love a fahaka or even a mbu. Heck the only reason I don't go for GSP's is money and size restraints LOL. Dwarfs were a great learning process and I still really love them. They're entirely way to cute and when I have enough time I'm going to try to give 'em a spawn.

I'll definaetly keep you posted on mine! Also keep us posted on yours

.

ChesapeakeSwellfish · Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:33 am

Rider - I make up my salt & bubble it with an airstone & pump overnight; usually, the salt directions indicate that's best. Some use a water pump or powerhead instead of an airpump/stone but the result is the same.

Sounds like you've got some lousy city water there. Man, do I appreciate having my own private well.

If the water coming out of the tap is so bad, can you buy decent water? Or do you know anyone with a well? I'd much rather start with good water than to treat bad water with chemicals.

lisalisa · Post by **lisalisa** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:02 pm

ChesapeakeSwellfish wrote: I'd much rather start with good water than to treat bad water with chemicals.

I completely agree. You might look into an RO/DI unit as well. I've seen some go for fairly cheap.

Post by **RTR** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:14 pm

Chloramines in the water supply can provide an ammonia aroma as well as chlorine aroma, and positive tests for both chlorine and ammonia. You need to use an agent/conditioner such a Prime to break the ammonia-chlorine bond and neutralize both the ammonia and the chlorine. Chlorine is converted to a chloride, and ammonia locked into an ammonium ion form by this agent. Nessler's reagent based kits will still read positive ammonia and inaccurately at that. Saliscylate based kits may still read positive ammonia, as they detect both ammonia and ammonium ion, but the scale will be accurate, and the matreial will be harmless to the fish.

Chloramine in the water is not justification for the expense and hassle of dealing with RO. Eventually all USA utilities will be using it, as it is the EPA standard now, but extended time is being allowed for the conversion - cities first, smaller systems much more slowly.

HTH

ChesapeakeSwellfish · Post by **ChesapeakeSwellfish** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:34 pm

For those who are NOT on city/treated water, the Nessler kits can be a bargain - http://www.bigalsonline has a closeout on the AP mini ammonia test kit for 0.99. I use both, one as a check on the other, and also the helpful total ammonia 1.0 reference that is provided in the Seachem FW/SW test kit as well as distilled water.

Nessler reagent doesn't last long, forms a precipitate and turns yellow, so its always necessary to use reference samples with it (IME). And of course, it can only be used for untreated water.

I never have ammonia in my home tanks, but work is another story & I test at least twice a day. Actually got a reading of 1.7 mg/l (total) in a tank last week.

Post by **RTR** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:53 pm

CS - you are still lucky. I have to test every time I fill a reservoir, and 95% of the time or more, it is chlorine-only. We are mainly chlorine, so off-gassing/tempering/aging only is fine. But, they reserve the right to use chloramine "as needed" (meaning any pipe work, new connections, etc.) and then I use Prime.

Rider · Post by **Rider** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:29 pm

I use Kent. Is Prime better?

RTR, here are some numbers I pulled off our city water report. I'm sure you will understand them more than me.

These are the averages:

Chloramines(mg/l) 2.01
Halocetic acids(ppb) 23.2
Nitrate(ppm) .08
Fluoride(ppm) .99

Calc(ppm) 13.0
Chloride(ppm) 36.9
Sodium(ppm) 19.0
ph(units) 9.8
Total hardness CaCo3(ppm) 95.2
Total hardness in grains 5.6
Sulfate 33.7
Aluminum(ppm) 0.02

Added the salt mix today, so I'm hoping for a happier, healthier puffer.

Oh, by the way, what kind of puffer is a Black River Puffer? It demonstrated lurker behavior.

Post by **RTR** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 1:19 am

OK, you definitely have chloramines (higher than mine when it is used), so need to an agent/conditioner which neutralizes both ammonia and chlorine such as Prime.

The tap nitrate titer is far below test kit kit readability, that is no problem at all.

Your total hardness is fairly soft, but the pH is astronomic. They must be using a short-lived buffer to protect the pipes.

The common name Black River Puffer is usually applied to Tetraodon leiurus, but it has also been applied to other puffers.

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