Tiger Barbs in a community tank?

[RTR]

I am totally confused. You say you have dwarf neon rainbows - they are not bottom fish, but strong and active mid- to upper water fish. If they are staying near the bottom of the tank, re-home the african butterfly. They are not community fish. I would not try keeping Neon Rainbows with any barb larger than a Cherry Barb.

Glass cats are also upper-water fish, but I would not keep them with active swimmers. IME, they are poor community fish and short-lived and inactive in tanks with either active and/or predatory fish. Very poor community choices IME. Actually I do best with them in species tanks with only small suckermouth cats (Otos and the smallest Ancistrus). Then the glass cats are day-active and long-lived.

[Raherin]

I am totally confused. You say you have dwarf neon rainbows - they are not bottom fish, but strong and active mid- to upper water fish. If they are staying near the bottom of the tank, re-home the african butterfly. They are not community fish. I would not try keeping Neon Rainbows with any barb larger than a Cherry Barb.

Glass cats are also upper-water fish, but I would not keep them with active swimmers. IME, they are poor community fish and short-lived and inactive in tanks with either active and/or predatory fish. Very poor community choices IME. Actually I do best with them in species tanks with only small suckermouth cats (Otos and the smallest Ancistrus). Then the glass cats are day-active and long-lived.

Every tank is different, and can work differently than others. My tank is pretty balanced in terms of behaviors.

The neons aren't bottom...I think I said my tank is 'mostly' bottom dwellers. They are swimming mid to upper level, like they should, they are very happy fish. They are bigger than my African butterfly also.

The African butterfly isn't 'really' a community fish, but if you have the right fish, there shouldn't be many problems. I haven't seen my butterfly attack anything other than floating things and insects, and that's why most of my tank is bottom dwellers, to give the African butterfly room. Not only that, my African butterfly never attacked any of the really young, small cardinal tetras I used to have. So, I'd say he's pretty docile. If he gets more aggressive, or too big I will move him...but it's really not necessary atm. He minds his own business.

The glass catfish have been in the tank longer than my African butterfly, and they actually have always stayed at the bottom of the tank, making short trips to the surface individually, and they are not shy during eating and will eat from my hand also. I added the African butterfly after I had the glass catfish for some time. I've even seen the glass catfish chilling right beside the African butterfly.

Hopefully that cleared some stuff up...there's nothing to worry about. If the butterfly grows too big I'll switch him out, but right now there's nothing to worry about and there hasn't been a single problem yet.

Funny story; last night during feeding I dropped a meal worm for my African butterfly...instead one of the glass catfish grabbed it [even though the worm was huge, and mostly sticking out of it's mouth] and swam from the tank, keeping it away from all the other fish while they chased him, and after about 30 seconds he dropped it. It was so funny..brave little guys, hehe.

[RTR]

Well, I have to disagree that your tank is in any way "balanced". Few "community" tanks are, and too many of them lead to short-lived and/or malnourished fish. To me your tank fits that profile.

But good luck to you and to your fish.

[Raherin]

Well, I have to disagree that your tank is in any way "balanced". Few "community" tanks are, and too many of them lead to short-lived and/or malnourished fish. To me your tank fits that profile.

But good luck to you and to your fish.

Hm..thanks? Sure you can disagree if you want, that's fine. I'm not having any of the issues you claim there should be, so, maybe things aren't always set in stone. Every tank runs differently. Let's not forget, you haven't actually seen the tank running, or anything...

Like I said, no problems at all, friendly, happy, healthy fish that all get along fine, and interact, and never fight. I have seen no kind of aggression at all whatsoever since I started it.. Maybe if I saw any kind of indication at all, I would consider what you're saying more.

My fish are not malnourished [quite the opposite as they are all growing nicely, and fed well], or short lived [again,they have survived some shaky conditions due to the learning curve], they are fed the most expensive healthiest food available. My glass catfish [and others] have survived two good nitrite spikes. That's a sign of strong fish, if you ask me.

I'm not trying to be stubborn, but you are suggesting I change things, when there are not the issues you claim there would be..sorry.

[xrayjeeper83]

why do people come to a forum and expect everyone to think what they did/doing is perfect and the best thing ever. And then get pissed off when someone disagrees

[Raherin]

why do people come to a forum and expect everyone to think what they did/doing is perfect and the best thing ever. And then get pissed off when someone disagrees

I'm not a fan of fish forum fundamentalism. I presented contrary evidence to a claim made about my tank, and was told instead that my tank was 'short lived', and 'malnourished'. I have every right to be frustrated, because this is not true.

I already said I don't care about someone disagreeing, and I don't expect my decisions to be regarded as perfect, but it would be nice to see a little bit of an open mind, because the facts are, my tank is running quite well, and tanks can run differently well, and African butterflies have been known to fit into community tanks on occasion. I'm not saying my setup would work all the time, either.

[RTR]

Three questions:

1. How long has this tank been operating with the present stock?

2. How many of the fish are at or beyond their standard adult size?

3. How many glass cats did you start with, and how long ago?

[Raherin]

Three questions:

1. How long has this tank been operating with the present stock?

2. How many of the fish are at or beyond their standard adult size?

3. How many glass cats did you start with, and how long ago?

Most of the fish in there have been there since January, but a few fish have moved in and out, due to two nitrate/nitrite spikes, or bad tank choices, once at the end of Jan 10, and once about two months ago. The African butterfly has been there since mid feb 10. [keep in mind, if he grows too big, or shows signs of aggression or whatnot I will move him, or give him to a friend]. From the second nitrate/nitrite spike my African butterfly doesn’t seem to like crickets anymore, he love meal worms, and will eat flakes and bloodworms – not sure how relevant that is, but I figured I might as well add that. :]

Glass catfish - full sized or at least very close
Two kribensis - male full sized, female medium
Yo yo loaches – two are medium, and one is full size, or about full sized he could still be growing
neon dwarf rainbows – all full size
aquatic frogs – medium/small sized
panda garra garra - medium
african butterfly - medium

I started with 3 glass catfish in January, bought 3 more than next day, and still have 6.

[RTR]

The tank and the fish are far too new to you for any claims on longevity, of of peaceful coexistence for that matter. After 6-10 years you will begin to have some ides of longevity for some of the fish,

[Raherin]

The tank and the fish are far too new to you for any claims on longevity, of of peaceful coexistence for that matter. After 6-10 years you will begin to have some ides of longevity for some of the fish,

I can dig that, but I can still make a claim on peaceful coexistence, at least from the time I got them, until now. Things might change, but I see no signs of that right now, and like I said, the glass catfish don't act nervous, or anything like that.

What do you see as the problem though? Is it just the glass catfish, and African butterfly? Or is it something else? Is it the African butterfly getting too big? I don't want to change up my tank unless there is good reason to.

[RTR]

You have too many species of fish in the tank, and likely insufficient numbers (not all specified) per species, or a very over-stocked tank.as well as fish incompatible with one another. It may have adequate survival while the fish are immature, but as the fish mature, their full normal behaviors will emerge and the most inappropriate fish will start dying off prematurely..

[Raherin]

You have too many species of fish in the tank, and likely insufficient numbers (not all specified) per species, or a very over-stocked tank.

Not quite...

My tank is not overstocked, and I have done research for each species to see how many they needed, and compensated that. The only issue is that I have 4 neons, when I should probably have a couple more.

as well as fish incompatible with one another. It may have adequate survival while the fish are immature, but as the fish mature, their full normal behaviors will emerge and the most inappropriate fish will start dying off prematurely..

Again, are you talking about the African butterfly only? Or should just the glass catfish be removed? I'm not just gonna take every fish back to the store. And I haven't heard about crazy changes in the fish behavior as they mature either...all my fish are considered community fish, with the African butterfly being a shade of gray, at least in some cases.

[RTR]

There is no such thing as a "community: fish in the aquarium sense. Generally peaceful fish may or may not be mixed with other relatively peaceful fish in a mixed tank, but in the wild there is no such thing. Fish live in schools or in communities of their own kind, and interact primarily with their own species (some Cory cats do school with other specific Corty cats). Other fish live in communities of their own kind, but far more widely spaced than schools, interacting for mating and/or defense of fry. Others are basically solitary, interacting with others of their kind only for breeding (puffers in general tend to be in this group, as are a number of predatory fish but not all). The keeping of fish in small boxes is artificial at best, and mixed or community tanks rarely if ever provide the optimum conditions for long life and health.

The minimum size for a group of schooling fish in a mixed tank is commonly given as 6-8, but this is the bare minimum, and never provides the optimum conditions for the fish. It can be workable if that school is the only one in any given niche - such as substrate-associated (such as Cory cats), or mid-water schooling fish. Top swimming schools such as some minnows and hatchet fish are really not that in standard hobby tanks - if not crowded by other mid-water schools they will swim both top and mid-water.

With the relatively (compared to the wild) small sizes of hobby tanks rarely provide enough swimming space for schooling without interruption from other species. Schools in the wild are at least dozens, and up to hundreds or thousands of fish. Hobbyists only very rarely provide sufficient numbers and space to seen schooling fish really school.

Additionally, few hobbyists ever realize how long common schooling fish ca live in captivity. That is in fact the one advantage aquarium fish have over their wild cousins - they can live for many years, far outlasting those in the wild. In good conditions, captive fish can and do live longer, grow larger, and are far healthier than their wild counterparts. Hobbyists who do nothing other than mixed tanks rarely see those benefits. "Confetti" or Noah's ark tanks do not provide anything approaching optimum conditions. Such tanks are in fact closer to those sad situations where folks keep large numbers of cats or dogs, with ill health, malnutrition, infectious diseases, and early deaths. Those situations are high stress for the "pets" involved, and frequently for the owners as well.

In the end, it boils down to what you want from your fish. If you really want 6-10 species in a mid-sized tank, and care little for providing good to optimum conditions for your pets, I will shut up and say no more. That is a personal choice. i cannot and will not operate tanks in that way, but it is your call.

[J-P]

Additionally, few hobbyists ever realize how long common schooling fish ca live in captivity. That is in fact the one advantage aquarium fish have over their wild cousins - they can live for many years, far outlasting those in the wild. In good conditions, captive fish can and do live longer, grow larger, and are far healthier than their wild counterparts. Hobbyists who do nothing other than mixed tanks rarely see those benefits. "Confetti" or Noah's ark tanks do not provide anything approaching optimum conditions. Such tanks are in fact closer to those sad situations where folks keep large numbers of cats or dogs, with ill health, malnutrition, infectious diseases, and early deaths. Those situations are high stress for the "pets" involved, and frequently for the owners as well.

Just to re-emphasize this point, look up "Ray Scott" or Bass Masters. They have the worlds largest catches from local lakes that are "bass producing" and man made. The fish are in a semi-controlled environment, water quality is tested and they have regular feeding schedules. They have regularly scheduled culls etc... Apply this to the aquarium and you have big beautiful healthy fish; in your living room! You can't give a fish what it need when you have too diverse a variety. It just isn't so.

I hope I didn't step on any toes with that comment

[Raherin]

Thanks for the really informative message RTR, I appreciate it. I'm not completely new to aquariums, and this is the first I've heard of this type of info, so I was a little dubious, and I apologize if I came across in a rude way at all. I'm gonna make a venture and guess that this type of thing happens a lot.

In the end, it boils down to what you want from your fish. If you really want 6-10 species in a mid-sized tank, and care little for providing good to optimum conditions for your pets, I will shut up and say no more. That is a personal choice. i cannot and will not operate tanks in that way, but it is your call.

This situation has happened because of ignorance, and misinformation or lack of information despite the research I did. I don't want poor conditions for my fish.

I will have to reevaluate what I have in my tank.

Thanks again.

P.S. Definitely not getting tiger barbs now, lol.