White abrasions on Figure 8

[Puffer710]

I recently bought a small figure 8 puffer about 2 weeks ago who has been fine until now. I trust the store I got him from and have been going there since I started my tank. They take ridiculously good care of their fish. I always have a rule when buying fish too....if there are any dead fish or any fish in the tank that appear ill, I do not take anything from that tank. Everything was fine in their tank of puffers though. He has developed white abrasions on both sides in between the gill flap and the tail. I have seen this before on my larger puffers and it went away quite fast. I assume they are from another fish biting them. They do not rise above the skin so I ruled out any type of fungus. They are in a circular form and not specks of white so it is clearly not ich. If it is merely that him and another fish got into a fight is there anything I can do because he is not looking well. It has been about 3 days now and he seems to be getting worse. There are no additional abrasions since then. As I said, I have seen this before and the puffers have gotten over it quickly. This little guy is having a hard time. As far as a change in behavior, he is staying at the very top of the tank. His head is up not down so I ruled out any form of "dropsie." It almost appeared that he was gasping for air, but when I looked closer, he is merely just rest his mouth just before the surface. He is very mopey and sluggish now. Surprisingly his eating habits have not changed. He still takes in an admirable amount of food. Another odd thing is that, since this appears to be bite marks, I have seen 0 aggression from the other fish. They all get along fine and I have had no problems with fighting. Since he is hanging around the top now, I would think that the archer would have a problem since that is his territory, but no. He has not touched him. What should I do about this before it's too late. It honestly looks like this little guy's end is near...
As far as my water parameters.....my nitrates and nitrites are all on the very low end, ph level is about 8.0, specific gravity is about 1.008, hardness is around 12-15dh, temperature keeps around 78-80 F.
Tank size: 35 gallon
Inhabitants: 3 figure eight puffers (2 that around 1 1/2 inches and the sick little guy is 3/4 inch), 3 spotted puffers (around 1 1/2-2 inches), Red Chromide (2 inches),
Archer (3 1/2 inches), Red Scat (2 inches), Green yellow dwarf puffer (1/2 inch)
I feed them bloodworms or live black worms once a day. The Archer is fed crickets. They also get krill once a week.
20% water changes once a week. On the 2nd week I make it around a 45-55% water change due to the puffers being such high producers of waste.
Aquarium has been set up for about 7 years now. The bottom is covered with crushed coral. I have 2 large pieces of driftwood with large clumps of java moss engulfing them. As far as other plants, I have an amazon sword and some jungle val. I have found that those are some of the few that will survive in a brackish water tank. I also have large slate rock in both corners of the aquarium that are set up to form small caves.

[pufferpuggirl]

Well I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your tank is over-crowded. One green spotted puffer needs 30 gallons to itself. So, that's the first thing. You mention that your nitrates and nitrites are "all on the very low end", but thing is, you don't want there to be ANY nitrites -- so that is a concern. We need actual numbers please, but I'm guessing with all those fish in that small tank that your filter can't handle the waste and that's probably why your little puffer isn't doing well.

You also need to be doing 50% water changes weekly.

I think the puffers need more food as well. Black worms and bloodworms aren't giving much nutrition. I feed mine raw shrimp and mussels, earthworms sometimes too.

But I really think you've just got too many fish in that small tank. The 3 spotted puffers should be in a 90-gallon tank by themselves. You'd probably be alright to leave the 3 Figure-8 puffers in the 35-gallon. And that dwarf is NOT a brackish water puffer, he should not even be in there in the first place. He needs freshwater.
I cannot comment on the other fish, as I do not know about them .... so I will leave them for someone else to comment on.

But I think you need to get another tank ASAP for those GSP's. Take the dwarf puffer out and get him into freshwater ASAP. And think about offering your puffers a more substantial diet. Also you need to start offering them snails, to help with their teeth growth.

I do think your puffers will be much happier if you can get them separated. GSP's and Figure-8's don't usually do well together due to aggression, as well as the fact that F8's don't require the higher salinity that GSP's need.

I'm sure some of the other members will have more suggestions. Please remember that we are only trying to help, and want the best for you and your puffers.

Good luck!

[purplecandle]

+1 to pufferpuggirl..Well Said

and just to add..If the marks are circular they are likely puff bites-most likely from a GSP

Since your water conditions are off and you are overstocked...the marks are not getting better..

[Pufferpunk]

I agree 100%. Please go to our Pufferpedia & research minimum tank sizes for your puffers. Overcrowding is a cause of major stress = lowered immune systems = disease = death.

[Puffer710]

Thank you for the quick replies. I appreciated it. Yeah I figured my tank was getting over crowded. You know how it is though. You see a new fish at the store and must have it. Haha. I did take the advice and divided the fish up. The Green spotted now have a separate. I will start to up the percentage on my water changes. I also forgot to mention that I feed them frozen krill as well, so they do have a variety for their diet. The small figure 8 puffer regrettably passed away this morning. I did go to my pet store today and found out that the entire tank of figure 8's they had passed away. They said it was a bad batch that came in. I told them how mine acted before it died, and besides the white abrasions, their puffers did the same thing as well. Sooo...that explains some of it, but I do agree that my overcrowded tank definitely didn't help the situation. The puffers seem a little more lively now that they have more space. The only thing I still find it odd is how I never witnessed any aggression and believe me, I am in the room several times a day, staring at the tank for long periods of time, sadly. Haha. Must have happen at night. Never saw the usual signs of distress from the puffer....ie: the dark belly. Eating habits didn't change either. The swimming behavior was the only thing. I suppose I cannot expect every puffer to show the exact same signs for everything. Thank you again for the opinions.

[purplecandle]

If that is the case..and it was a "bad batch"...you should be concerned about what you may have introduced into you tank..if you did not quarantine the F8

[pufferpuggirl]

Good point purple

[Puffer710]

Yeah, after I found that out it was advised that I treat the tank with a mild medication in case anything harmful may be at large. I cannot remember exactly what it's called. I thought it was lifeguard, but I was told it was kind of a multi-purpose, all around medication that treats a variety of problems and it should eliminate any threats if any exist.

[pufferpuggirl]

Hmm...... I try to avoid using chemicals in any of my tanks unless absolutely necessary. Thing is, puffers don't have scales so they are much more sensitive to treatments that other fish may tolerate. And I would not listen to any advice given by a LFS, unless they specialise in puffers. Most don't know what they are talking about when it comes to puffers.
I hope the remainder of your group are okay.

[Puffer710]

Yeah....another puffer is ill now. It's the smallest of my spotted puffers. He's about an inch long. Whatever is was must of hit him before I moved them. What should I do? It's losing color on the top. The spots are starting to fade. He is resting at the bottom and taking really heavy, fast breaths. Also, how am I expected to cure a fish especially one that clearly might have some sort of internal parasite without using medication. The good 'ol trick of turning up the heat and adding more salt to kill ick doesn't really apply here. What am I suppose to do because if I do not use medication and I already did a big water change, all that is left is watch the puffer die. Not really what I want. Ideas anyone? This seems to be a fast killer too whatever it is. I guarantee this little guy will not last the night. HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pufferpunk]

IPs wouldn't attack it that fast. Does it seem to have the same symptoms as the F8? This is why QT is so important. Please answer all the Qs above in red.

[Puffer710]

Already answered the question in my first post I believe. Everything is the same. Nitrates, nitrites are 0 now. They were reading just above before. That is the only change. The only difference from the figure 8 puffer is that the spotted is resting on the bottom and is breathing very fast and heavy. With the figure 8, he stayed at the top, was not gasping for air. Both have no change in eating habits. The spotted's belly is pure white, but the spots are fading. I don't know what else to give you as far as information. Any ideas at all?

[pufferpuggirl]

Are you saying that your nitrates are "0" ? And when you moved these fish into other tanks, from the original tank that they were all in together .... did you cycle the tank? Because unless you already had a tank up and running, there wasn't enough time to cycle another tank and if that's the case, then that's the culprit.

On the other hand .... just so you know and we aren't overlooking the obvious -- you do know that puffers change their colouring when they sleep, right? My GSP's lose just about all their colouring when they are resting and if you didn't know better, you'd think they were sick, but once they wake up they get their colouring back and are themselves again.

What was the medication that you used?

I understand your frustration, but you must understand that puffers are so much more sensitive to medications that other fish aren't bothered by, and that, because they don't have scales, just can't handle alot of chemicals that are deemed safe for aquarium use. And just because a puffer doesn't die after you've used a medication doesn't mean that it hasn't affected the puffer in a negative way.

[Puffer710]

Tank was already cycled. It was up and running already. Yes nitrates are 0. None of my other puffers change colors when they sleep. They just curl up in a ball somewhere. I'm not saying that I don't believe you, but I have never had a puffer change colors during sleep. It is also clear that it has nothing to do with sleeping. The puffer, like I stated before, is breathing very poorly. It is very noticeable. I have asked, looked up in books, and online that lifeguard is safe for puffers. Because it is a multi purpose medicine, so to speak, it is not as strong as the medicines that are specifically for one disease.

[J-P]

Sorry ... just had to jump in for a moment.

What kind of test equipment are you using? Nitrates of 0 = an uncycled tank OR are you using a nitrate reducing filter (ie vodka dosing)? When you say "up and running" were there fish in it? I used to believe that a tank was cycled by leaving it running fishless for 10 days ... boy was I wrong!

We still don't have an ammonia reading. <== that is going to be my guess

This product "lifeguard" can you tell us what is in it?

And yes, my puffer loose color when sleeping also. Much darker when active.