Denitrification/LiveRock Confusion...

[Kungpaoshizi]

Ok, so if you have a denitrifier unit, something about injection sugar so the anaerobic bacteria metabolizes the sugar to process the nitrates...

But if you have live rock, it houses denitrying bacteria within itself...

But you don't feed sugar? lol

Is this purely just because in a DN coil it's a "continent" of bacteria, whereas the LR just has a "metropolitan" city? heh
Good way to describe it?

So then it requires somehow a different chemical/biology scenario?

I guess I should ask too if anyone prefers lava rock or even pumice(since it's so porous)?

After dealing with ich/parasites, I'm super weary about ordering some random stuff from some random place...even if it's going to be quarantined...(maybe I shouldn't worry then?)

/shrug

Thanks very much!

[Mek0ng]

So whats the question? A denitrifier is going to be more effective than live rock, but might have some impact on the live rock bio diversity, not sure. If you really are concerned about nutrient export look into getting a oversized skimmer and dosing vodka.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php

Ich is not going to be on live rock unless the LFS is keeping sick fish in the live rock vat. If you are concerned about pests and nuisance algae, look into dry rock, check out bulkreefsupply to start.

[Kungpaoshizi]

Lol I love your avatar pic btw hehe...

To clarify,
if you have live rock, you don't have to dose the tank for the anaerobic bacteria within the rock correct?
Then what is the biological purpose in having to dose the denitrifier?

I guess you could also phrase it as, "why do you have to dose the denitrifier when something similar is in your tank(LR) and you don't have to dose that?"

Perhaps the answer is right in front of me and I'm just not getting something...

As far as the pests/nuisance on live rock, does that include parasites/diseases?
I've seen the cured rock around, and that basically elminiates having to "cycle" the rock right?

Thanks, there's a lot of intricate things I never would have even realized

[Pufferpunk]

No live rock is 100% cured, unless you get out of a known established tank. Don't believe the LFS that their rock is cured, unless they sell it out of their display tank.

[Nick]

"why do you have to dose the denitrifier when something similar is in your tank(LR) and you don't have to dose that?"

Because the rock works by reducing(Edit: yes I misspoke, fixing adds nitrogen to a system) nitrogen deep in it's anaerobic zones, and it is limited by nature in how much this can occur. A denitrator uses a supplemental food of some kind, and typically a media that must be replaced at least in part every few years(for trace elements) to make a system that removes nitrates FAST.

[RTR]

Back to another comparison - live rock is definitely a metropolitan community. In that community, there is underground (relatively anoxic) and below that an underworld (solidly anoxic). Dinitrification happens in the area where one of those last two neighborhoods shades into the other. A denitrification unit however is a refugium for one particular clan of bacteria which in the wild or the reef lives in that borderland we mentioned. As an isolated population, it requires special imports to meet its needs and set its conditions. It may, when well set, established, and maintained, do a better (read as: more effective) job than the natural community with gradations and borders, but it is also much more demanding, and carries hazards of its own.

Does that make any sense at all?

HTH

[Kungpaoshizi]

Ya, kinda...

But I'm still confused as to how it works within the live rock, but NOT within a coil without additional additives...
Purely because it's more of that bacteria and thus more demanding, but why would it require something other than what is in the water, if the other (in the rock) can function directly from the water...

Like Nick says 'the rock works by fixing nitrogen deep in those zones', but you don't input nitrogen into the coil?

Maybe I could skip to the chase and say, if you set up a DN coil, and just ran water through it, with a very fine filter, to avoid particulate matter, what would happen long term if no addtional additives were presented into the coil?

Would it then, populate with bacteria over time, become seperate (aerobic in the upper sections, anaerobic in the lower sections), and then everything but the aerobic would slowly die off, leaving an "empty section" in the lower sections?

Sorry, it's a downfall of mine to know the intricate workings of even the most mundane... lol
I think that's why I do so well with my job in IT technology... heh

But all in all, I want to explore ALL possible options as to the most appropriate setup for certain aquatic scenarios so I don't end up making myself more work than what is needed, or overlooking something important that could just completely blow up in my face in the end and kill everything in the tank...

I get that a denitrifier works more efficiently, but I do enjoy modifying things to rework efficiency..

Like the Paul B guy said "many who are in the aquarium keeping hobby are nothing more than self proclaimed experts" hehe

[Mek0ng]

Do you currently have a nitrate problem? If so you need to figure out why. The most common causes are either over stocking or over feeding or a combination of the two. Address the nitrate problem at the source. If you have such a problem with nitrates I would bet that phosphate are also a large issue, so large amounts of GFO are needed as well. In a properly stocked and not over fed tank, and with an appropriate amount and frequency of water changes, you should not have a nitrate problem.

Hence denitraters are not commonly used on reef systems. Turf scrubbers, cheato refugiums, carbon dosing (vodka, vit c, etc) are a more common and less aggressive solutions.

I by no means claim to be an expert, just well read, and IMO well experienced. In addition to many years of fish keeping, with emphasis on soft coral and mixed reefs, I have been working for 3 years for a local business setting up large displays in homes and businesses. So Im just trying to help out the best I can

[RTR]

A denitrtor is a nitrogen reduction device, not a nitrogen-fixing device, Nitrogen fixing is removal of N2 gas from the air by bacteria into a combined form in organics, which later become oxidized into inorganic nitrates.in the soil. Nitrogen reduction is relase of nitrogen from organic or dissolved mineral forms (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) back into the air as disssolved gas which evolves into gas bubbles and returns to the air. Nick misspoke. N is not fixed deep in live rock, or DSB, or microporous sintered glass, coil demitators etc., it is reduced to its atomic form in those places under conditions between anaerobic and anoxic. N2 is fixed by specialized bacteria and bluegreen algae.in aerobic conditions.

HTH

[Kungpaoshizi]

No Mek0ng, I'm not doubting you, or anyone else for that matter~
And no, I don't have a nitrate problem

I'm just trying to wrap my head around what I should, to be able to properly plan for other setups...

I'm always curious about science, especially chemistry, but what actually happens in an aquarium is by far a very balanced system that seems to be very fragile as well..

So the majority of reef setups are just LR/DSB/Refuge's? ( I know this isn't the reef forum )

I'm not necessarily going that direction with my current tank, but I've tried Crushed Coral, and wow, I had a huge nitrite problem for weeks at one point because a hornwort died off, but all the crap was in the CC EVEN after vac'in the CC multiple times... It was so bad 4-5 cupfuls of CC, in a 5 gallon bucket, already rinsed twice, would yield super cloudy water the 3rd time filling the bucket and agitating all of it in the bottom....for a 3rd time.... lol

I think I'll stick with sand in the end

[RTR]

FOWLR and reef share a common material, the live rock. But PP's warning about the commercial definition of "cured" live rock versus an established reefer's definition of LR are very meaningful and important. The commercial definition only means that the LR has already had the first massive die-off, period. Not at all that it is "mature" cured LR. LR has myriad porositiies and can house an unbelievable assortment of microflora and microfauna, plus all the assorted very small but visible critters that help maintain and sustain a reef. It can also house nasties if it is not really cured. Mature LR is a long-term investment, just a small frags can be.

The technologic solutions - denitrification devices, etc. - can work, but they are deceptively simple in appearance compared with the delicate biological niches they provide. You really cannot easily talk about these devices without some advanced bichemistry familiarity -or more accurately, I can't talk about - these devices without ORP (oxidation-reduction potentials and the the probes which measure such) and leaving most hobbyists completely in the dark and confused. I consider all these gadgets highly dangerous to the non-scientific hobbyist. You can do real damage with such devices if improperly operated. Mature LT does not have those risks. Th only issue there is how mature the LR really is. That can, with patience, be handled by any hobbyist. The only enemy there is impatience. This does mean that in our society, it is a non-trivial issue.

HTH

[Kungpaoshizi]

Ya that's one thing I thought of right away with the operation of such a DN coil is "wth, you're pumping CO2 water back into the tank?"
lol

Is there any good write up though on what exactly happens within the ND coil if no additional additives are presented?

You say: "It can also house nasties if it is not really cured"
What kind of nasties? I've been reading a lot on LR, but it seems like for one explanation, there's 5 that counter that lol... And ya, I figured the whole "It's cured, you can just throw it in your tank!" was basically just profit seekers looking for a buck... Seems like there's delicate matters with 99% of everything that touches the medium(s) in which the lifeforms live...And the petstores/retailers alike all like to keep quiet about it, or just simply don't know enough about the scenarios they're suggesting them for.

[RTR]

Your last two sentences pretty much sum it up. I also suspect that a part of it is just insufficient knowledge. Most folks do just drop it in the tank. They may or may not ever recognize that as a source of part of the problems and issues they face.

The best solution would be more real and valid information available to the hobbyist, but that is not easy to do. I suspect that the majority of the folks going into such tanks really have no clue as to the complexity of the problems, and largely rely on on-line or local store outlets for info.