Brackish Setup Confusion! HELP!

[Pufferpunk]

Check the Library for ideas on faster cycling.

[kezzerone]

Ok... Now I'm even more confused.

I've already admitted that I made a mistake by putting my puffer in his tank before it was completely cycled. However, this is now a moot point because he's in the tank and I want to keep him healthy and alive.... whatever that takes.

So, I've been doing at least 50% water changes every day, and despite this, the nitrites are STILL showing 2 ppm and nitrates at 20 ppm. I stopped testing for ammonia after RTR explained how the kit I have is showing the TAN which is the "combination of the free ammonia dissolved gas (harmful, toxic, burns gills) and the ammonium ion form (harmless) . . which is useless in treated chloraminated water. The AmQuel should have the ammonia dissolved gas locked into the ammonia ion form, so it should be harmless. You have to dose carefully and trust your conditioner."

Well, every time I change the water, I add a small (2-3 ml) of AmQuel in addition to 5 ml of StressZyme. As RTR explained above, this will lock the ammonia gas into the harmless ion form. But then, on the advice of pufferpunk, I search the library for tips on speeding up the cycling and I come across an article that states to NOT use ammonia removers, etc. because it SLOWS the cycling process. Well, every time I change the water, I add a small (2-3 ml) of AmQuel in addition to 5 ml of StressZyme.

I'm starting to feel like I'm going in circles. I just want to make sure I'm doing everything I can to ensure this tank completes cycling sometime this decade.

[Nick]

Ammonia removers are different from binders/detoxifiers. Some early products, some of which are still for sale, would convert the ammonia into an inert form which was unpalatable to the bacteria that cycle a tank. Amquel doesn't truly remove ammonia in this way, simply binds and detoxifies, leaving it available to the biofilter.

[kezzerone]

Ammonia removers are different from binders/detoxifiers. Some early products, some of which are still for sale, would convert the ammonia into an inert form which was unpalatable to the bacteria that cycle a tank. Amquel doesn't truly remove ammonia in this way, simply binds and detoxifies, leaving it available to the biofilter.

Nick, thank you for the clarification.

At this stage, would it be beneficial to give Dr. Tim's or BioSpira a try to expedite the cycling or should I just stick it out? I know there is no guarantee it will work, but if it's worth a shot..... If so, which one?

[RTR]

kezzerone: My apologies for getting distracted on cycling by others' comments and not responding to an earlier post of yours.

Layering gravel is somewhat risky. First off, BW tanks do not require much substrate, they are only rarely planted. Shallow substrates are easier and better to maintain. Second, layered substrates cannot be vacuumed fully without mixing - you do not then have a layered substrate, you have a mixture. Third particle size is all-important, for two reasons - over time, substrate particles sort themselves by size, the smallest on the bottom, the largest at the surface. Also, smaller particles have more surface area and can thus buffer the water more easily and effectively. that is mitigated by routine full-depth vacuuming, but the size sorting still occurs - even in the gravel vac tube. If you are not already committed to one particular course, you may want to re-think your proposed setup, especially if you wanted to conceal the current substrate - it is highly unlikely to effectively impossible.

HTH

[kezzerone]

kezzerone: My apologies for getting distracted on cycling by others' comments and not responding to an earlier post of yours.

Layering gravel is somewhat risky. First off, BW tanks do not require much substrate, they are only rarely planted. Shallow substrates are easier and better to maintain. Second, layered substrates cannot be vacuumed fully without mixing - you do not then have a layered substrate, you have a mixture. Third particle size is all-important, for two reasons - over time, substrate particles sort themselves by size, the smallest on the bottom, the largest at the surface. Also, smaller particles have more surface area and can thus buffer the water more easily and effectively. that is mitigated by routine full-depth vacuuming, but the size sorting still occurs - even in the gravel vac tube. If you are not already committed to one particular course, you may want to re-think your proposed setup, especially if you wanted to conceal the current substrate - it is highly unlikely to effectively impossible.

HTH

Thanks for you input on this. Actually, I'm planning on completely removing and replacing my current gravel with Carib Sea Arag-Alive. But, I realize that my current gravel is (hopefully) beginning to contain beneficial bacteria, and I don't want to just remove it and take steps backwards. So, my plan was to scoop up the top layer of my current gravel and put it in a media bag, then completely remove the lower layer of gravel and add the new Carib Sea Arag-Alive. Once this is done, I will put the media bag containing the old gravel in back in the tank. This way, I won't lose the bacteria and I won't have to worry about mixing the old and new gravel. Also, I will be using many of the same decorations, etc. Once the tank stabilizes and the new gravel has had sufficient time to collect bacteria, I will remove the media bag of old gravel.

Does this all make sense? Does this sound like a good idea?

[Pufferpunk]

Don't waste your $$$ on anything claiming to be "alive", stored in a bag. Just get regular aragonite sand. If you're going to add Dr Tim's, then you don't need to use your old substrate at all.

In the cycling info, you must not use ammonia removers when using product like Dr Tim's but I didn't mean that you should never use the product at all. Just when using those products.

So, I've been doing at least 50% water changes every day, and despite this, the nitrites are STILL showing 2 ppm and nitrates at 20 ppm.

Then do 80% WC daily.

[kezzerone]

Don't waste your $$$ on anything claiming to be "alive", stored in a bag. Just get regular aragonite sand.

The main reason I got this particular type was mainly aesthetics. It was the only black aragonite I could find.

In the cycling info, you must not use ammonia removers when using product like Dr Tim's but I didn't mean that you should never use the product at all. Just when using those products.

Thanks for the clarification. I also read that info very, very late last night and likely could have misinterpreted what I read!

I'm hoping to start seeing some cycling results soon.... before I run out of salt, conditioner, and money.

[RTR]

Yup, your revised plan sound good on the gravel. It can be worth it to overspend to get what you want, when you will have to look at it for a decade or two. I get real self-indulgent on that point at times myself. To be honest, I am pretty self-indulgent anyway. This is not a dress rehearsal, this is it.

[Pufferpunk]

You say you're running out of salt. Could you bring it back to FW, while you are doing all those WC?

[kezzerone]

Yup, your revised plan sound good on the gravel. It can be worth it to overspend to get what you want, when you will have to look at it for a decade or two. I get real self-indulgent on that point at times myself. To be honest, I am pretty self-indulgent anyway. This is not a dress rehearsal, this is it.

Thanks, RTR. I'm the same way. The tank is pretty much the first thing someone sees when they walk in our apartment, so I want to make sure it looks good! I'm also going to add a few cool looking rocks I found on the beach over the years. I bought some new artificial plants and a new ceramic cave as well. I'm hoping it will look good! I'll post a pic when it's complete.

You say you're running out of salt. Could you bring it back to FW, while you are doing all those WC?

Eh, I think I'll just keep him brackish. The salt isn't that expensive and I was exaggerating a bit about running out. However, if this tank doesn't stabilize soon I'm going to get really frustrated!

[Pufferpunk]

I had a 29g tank crash & no matter how many 80% WC I did, the ammonia/nitrite remained off the charts. That went on for 2 weeks, until I actually removed the big hollow ornament I had in there. Lifting it to clean under it wasn't enough, because the rotting fish carcass wouldn't fall out, until I did that. I think I used en entire bag of salt on that one...

[kezzerone]

Ouch! A dead fish carcass will do the trick!! I'm hoping that the high ammonia and nitrite levels won't continue for much longer. I'm continually monitoring my fish for signs of stress and he seems to be doing just fine, which is a relief.

I think I'm going to undertake the substrate change tomorrow and I have one lingering question: Should I change 100% (as close to it) of the water or should I stick to keeping 20% of the old water?

Also, I'm currently using the 6 in 1 dip strips for nitrate, nitrite, ph testing and I've read that those are less than reliable when it comes to accuracy. Can you recommend good brand/type/site for brackish-compatible test kits for these three things?

Thanks!!

[Pufferpunk]

Go with the API liquid test kits.

[kezzerone]

So, I thought I would post a quick update of my tank.

Last week, I completely replaced all of the fake, colored gravel with Carib Sea Arag-Alive and some natural rocks I've found along the beaches in Maine. I posted a picture below.

I've been keeping up with the water changes and FINALLY started seeing a drop in the ammonia a few days ago. I would estimate that right now, I am getting a reading of between 0.0 and 0.25 ppm. There has also been a significant improvement in the pH and alkalinity.

The bad news is that the nitrites are still around 2.0 ppm and the nitrates are in the 20 ppm range.

I'm really hoping the nitrite level drops soon.

Lastly, I have two questions:

1) I've had the same filter in for over a month now (b/c I didn't want to lose any bacteria). Would it be okay to change it or should I wait longer?

2) I'm going to purchase the API master test kit. Should I buy the marine or freshwater kit? (The marine is about $10 cheaper!)