2 Fish Died After WC

[LilGreenPuffer]

Prime changed some time back. The original formulation called for two drops per gallon, the newer ones are one drop per gallon. Same material, different strength

The stuff is pretty stable. If you have an old bottle, keep using it. But the newer stuff uses less volume per gallon.

Really? I haven't had my bottle for that long, and it says two!

[Nick]

Having worked in a LFS, how long THEY had it is always the question. We had a designated day to dust slow moving stock
I also found I was WAY overdosing when I was measuring using portions of capfuls - I rinsed out an old bettafix dropper bottle(it's just like the ones API test kit liquids come in) by popping off the dropper top, which is quite easy btw, it's not glued, and now I fill it from the big bottle. My supply lasts WAY longer now.

[Dadof4]

You do get your water from Lake Michigan. Only Neptune knows what that lake holds and can release in to the water supply. Even though it's treated and monitored the possibility some chemical came in with the thaw or just happened to leak off a tanker/barge and ended up in your tank isn't out of the question. As to why those particular fish, who knows, odd things do happen. Sorry you lost them, it's tough when you've had them for that long.

[RTR]

Forget it - the earlier poster said the windy city is Cl2 only. I am shocked. How do they get away with it? Prime has a huge safety margin for Cl2-only. It ain't that. Another beautiful theory bites the dust.

The swimming pool tests are our only source. The aquarium chlorine/chloramine test is no longer made.

New theory: After some off-line discussion, gas embolism, a.k.a. "gas bubble disease" is a possibility. It is one of the primary reasons I age all my water - it off-gases harmlessly in the aging vessels. But reducing the volume of changes will greatly reduce the risk. The fact that she did several other partials, but smaller ones (discus are picky on large partials, really need them). and there were no issues with the smaller partials. PP may have to serial smaller changes to protect the fish in winter. Air embolism is not a risk when the water is warmer in mid-summer through fall to early winter in my climate, late winter through sprig are risky here.

It would also explain the loach's erratic behavior - it was in severe pain and trying to escape. The condition is quite like "the bends: in divers - nitrogen gas bubbles in the bloodstream

HTH

[Pufferpunk]

Awww poor loach...

[Mrs.Puff]

Thats sucks. Sorry to hear Pufferpunk! I do know that discus are very finickey. We moved our discus, this one time when I was in the Animal Care Program and they died. They just get so stressed out too easlily.

[Flutter]

That sounds horrible, and I have to do a water change today!

[Pufferpunk]

I waited an extra day to do a WC on Filbert's tank. Did 75% & added 2x the usual amount of Prime. No problems, even with the 2 big, old clown loaches.

[RTR]

I used to be a diver myself, so I had heard all the horror stories about the bends, but I never had lost any fish to gas bubble disease until I moved to this house 20-some years ago. . It only has to hit once, but I really have not heard much if anything about it in a long time. It is more likely only with very large partials - as for Discus, or trying to trigger spawning (that is when I got caught, on Brochis cats). At the 50% level we mainly use and suggest, it is much less likely. I considered the bubbles pesky but did not worry about them. I learned the hard way too. That was when I started aging all my water. I never see bubbles any more, and have not though about it in years.

But that really is more likely than chance contamination, either microbial or chemical. Those are unlike to be that fast (microbial never is fast, chemical only with large doses - not easy in a water supply). But gas embolism is minutes, and is very traumatic for the victims. With back to back smaller partials, only a relatively short wait between is required - a couple or very few hours max - to be safe. The overpressure gases come out quickly when the pressure is off the water. Nitrogen is the largest component of our air, so it takes the rap.

You see, we really are all still learning.

HTH

[Flutter]

Interesting.

The people I know that lost fish had them die over several days. The discus especially would act normal, turn white, and die in less than 5 minutes. I don't think the other fish died like that though.

[RTR]

If the particular fish did not hit hard, they could linger - just as with coronary or stroke victims - but if they have major embolism, it is fast (and commonly painful but not always - depends on the organ hit and the size of the embolism) and out. It was for my catfish. But the damage is done fast in any case. The gases cannot stay in solution very long at all under superaturation conditions. Any particulate in the water can act as a point for gas bubble formation - but then gets carried up with the bubble. Plant hairs and infusoria or algae threads on the surfaces or tiny pointed areas on rocks stay in place and show as pearling - chains of tiny bubbles. Inside the fish or human, even blood cells can serve, or cilia, etc.

[Myaj]

LOL I have to laugh at your hubby's comment about you having the best water around.. its CHICAGO WATER! How good can it possibly be??? ROFL

Maybe they got cryptospyridum or whatever that was that hit all the Lake Michigan water back in the 80's, hehehe.

Poor guys.. I'll stop joking around now...

[bastallard]

I might have missed something, so this is caused by refilling directly from the tap into the tank? I would age my water too, but when I have it was only for a 24 hour period.

[Nick]

Two hours is probably more then enough for even a large quantity of dissolved pressurized atmospheric gases to settle - giving it points to condense upon(tossing a net into the bucket) speeds it up even more. On the most basic level, this is really no different than how carbonation in soda water works, only in that case, a highly soluble gas(co2) is intentionally supersaturated in the liquid. Carbon with two oxygens forms a gas somewhat larger on the atomic/molecular scales than the nitrogen(n2) component of the atmosphere which typically causes embolism, and nitrogen gases tend to dissolve somewhat differently and come out of solution differently..."air" is primarily nitrogen gas.
Fun facts:
Another type of nitrogen gas(nitrous oxide) is used in most "tap" beer systems along with co2 to provide, smaller, smoother(it's not as acidic as co2) and longer-lasting heads on draft beer, which is why those pints the pub served alongside your onion rings and chicken fingers just aren't the same as the identical brand at home.
The behaviors of dissolved gas in water are interesting and their culinary applications delightful, however, as a side-effect of a high pressure water system, they are not so good for fish.

[Flutter]

Gross, I hate beer head.