Cycling mg/L vs. ppm simple 2 pt question

A place to discuss general puffer care or news.
User avatar
J-P
Former Staff Member
Posts: 5626
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:21 am
Gender: Male
Location (country): Japan
Location: Sasebo, Nagasaki, Japan

Cycling mg/L vs. ppm simple 2 pt question

Post by J-P »

the article on fishless cycleing states:
Now add the ammonia in such a quantity to raise ammonia test results to ~5ppm. This is best achieved by simply adding a few drops, and testing. Adding a few more drops, and testing again. Raise the ammonia test results to a reading of ~5ppm
My ammonia reader does mg/L.

Is this the same or is there an equation to get mg/L to ppm?

the next Q: the test is for Ammonia nitrogen (NH3-N)

It says to test for pure ammonia( NH3) "multiply by a factor of 1.216"
What is the diff when it comes to fish?
if you follow me, you avoid stepping in the crap that I just did...

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZR55G ... pqlgec1A2Q
riggers
Green Spotted Puffer
Posts: 442
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 5:50 pm
Location (country): UK

Re: Cycling mg/L vs. ppm simple 2 pt question

Post by riggers »

I believe you can get technical with it, but for most purposes it is fair enough to just say 1 mg/l = 1 ppm
User avatar
J-P
Former Staff Member
Posts: 5626
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:21 am
Gender: Male
Location (country): Japan
Location: Sasebo, Nagasaki, Japan

Re: Cycling mg/L vs. ppm simple 2 pt question

Post by J-P »

I had a feeling that was the answer ... but wasn't 100% certain.

Thank you!
if you follow me, you avoid stepping in the crap that I just did...

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZR55G ... pqlgec1A2Q
User avatar
soggydrysuit
Fahaka Puffer
Posts: 541
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:36 am
Gender: Male
My Puffers: 2x T.fluviatilis
1x C. irrubesco
2 x T. nigroviridis
1 x T. ocellatus
Current non-puffers:

Enough for people to think I'm a loonie :-)
Location (country): UK
Location: Durham, UK

Re: Cycling mg/L vs. ppm simple 2 pt question

Post by soggydrysuit »

Someone please correct me, but don't most liquid API tests for ammonia add NH3 and NH4+concentrations together?

Different question, I know...
User avatar
J-P
Former Staff Member
Posts: 5626
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:21 am
Gender: Male
Location (country): Japan
Location: Sasebo, Nagasaki, Japan

Re: Cycling mg/L vs. ppm simple 2 pt question

Post by J-P »

:hijack:

but that is ok ... I am using a digital reader very good question :)
if you follow me, you avoid stepping in the crap that I just did...

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZR55G ... pqlgec1A2Q
User avatar
soggydrysuit
Fahaka Puffer
Posts: 541
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:36 am
Gender: Male
My Puffers: 2x T.fluviatilis
1x C. irrubesco
2 x T. nigroviridis
1 x T. ocellatus
Current non-puffers:

Enough for people to think I'm a loonie :-)
Location (country): UK
Location: Durham, UK

Re: Cycling mg/L vs. ppm simple 2 pt question

Post by soggydrysuit »

Excuse me :)

You did not state you were using an electronic meter for this ammonia test. I have not yet heard of one!
User avatar
J-P
Former Staff Member
Posts: 5626
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:21 am
Gender: Male
Location (country): Japan
Location: Sasebo, Nagasaki, Japan

Re: Cycling mg/L vs. ppm simple 2 pt question

Post by J-P »

that's ok ...
http://www.milwaukeeinst.com/db/doc/manMi405_ENG.pdf <== that's the guy I am using

I try to go digital when ever possible ... I dislike the range kits
if you follow me, you avoid stepping in the crap that I just did...

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZR55G ... pqlgec1A2Q
RTR
Mentor
Posts: 6155
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 4:39 pm
Gender: Male
Location (country): East Coast, USA

Re: Cycling mg/L vs. ppm simple 2 pt question

Post by RTR »

For us, ppm = mg/l. Technically they don't, but until you can read out to more than six decimal places and they are all significant,don't worry about it.

Someday the hobby world will adopt N-only readings. Ammonia is NHs = nitrogen and 3 hydrogens. NH4+ is nitrogen and 4 hydrogens , so different by one on the atomic scale. Hobby test as a rule read "total ammonia nitrogen", a.k.a. TAN - meaning that they read the nitrogen only and the devil take the hydrogens. If they wanted to be consistent, or heaven forbid, be rational, nitrite would read "total nitrite nitrogen" and nitrate would read "total nitrate nitrogen" . If that were the case, one ppm TAN would oxidize to one ppm total nitrite-nitrogen, and that in turn would oxidize to one ppm total nitrate-nitrogen. Totally rational. Instead we have hobby kits which read TAN for ammonia, but total atomic weight for nitrite and nitrate. This gives us a situation where one ppm TAN gives 3.3 ppm nitrite and that in turn gives 4.4 ppm nitrate. Instead of the nitrogen balance being flat and ead easy for anyone to see, it gets larger at every stage because oxygen is heavier than hydrogen - all when it is the nitrogen that interests us.

Aren't you glad you asked a simple question?

BTW, EPA figures are the nitrogen-only rational type. Shouldn't we be depressed that the Fed. is more rational than we are?

HTH
Where's the fish? - Neptune
User avatar
Pufferpunk
Queen Admin
Posts: 32980
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 11:06 am
Gender: Female
My Puffers: Puffers I have kept:
T lineatus
T miurus
A modestus
T biocellatus
C valentini
C coranata
C papuan
C lorteti
DPs
suvattii
burrfish
T niphobles
Location (country): USA, Greenville, SC
Location: Greenville, SC
Contact:

Re: Cycling mg/L vs. ppm simple 2 pt question

Post by Pufferpunk »

I'm dizzy.
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...

"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
RTR
Mentor
Posts: 6155
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 4:39 pm
Gender: Male
Location (country): East Coast, USA

Re: Cycling mg/L vs. ppm simple 2 pt question

Post by RTR »

It is quite simple PP, hobby test kits are irrational. Field grade kits tend to report rationally, EPA uses rational measures, labs tend to rational reports. Why don't we? GOK, but we don't. The bottom line is that it makes it harder for hobbyists to understand nitrogen in their tanks.
Where's the fish? - Neptune
User avatar
J-P
Former Staff Member
Posts: 5626
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:21 am
Gender: Male
Location (country): Japan
Location: Sasebo, Nagasaki, Japan

Re: Cycling mg/L vs. ppm simple 2 pt question

Post by J-P »

Thank you! I got my eyes uncrossed now! :dazed:

From the sounds of it, it seems that as the hydrogen passes from place to place that substance is converted and becomes less toxic to the fish?

Is there a dif (fish wise) between NH3-N and NH3? or should I just be reading the NH3-N?
if you follow me, you avoid stepping in the crap that I just did...

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZR55G ... pqlgec1A2Q
RTR
Mentor
Posts: 6155
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 4:39 pm
Gender: Male
Location (country): East Coast, USA

Re: Cycling mg/L vs. ppm simple 2 pt question

Post by RTR »

To the fish, there is no significant difference. The human eye reading error is greater that the weight difference. Atomic weight 17 versus at. wt 14 in not very big.

When I play with nitrogen balances, I use the N-only figures. It is so much easier (as well as more rational) to work with than total weight. The scales used on the colorimetric test do not change, only the numbers assigned to them: No change to a TAN test (it is N-only already); divide nitrite numbers by 3.3; divide nitrate numbers by 4.4. Life is simpler and kinder to the aging brain, but the toxicities stay right where they were, unchanged. If you are in hazard areas on any metabolite, you stay in exactly the same place. It all boils down to purely arbitrary selection of the units used to label the color charts. The color changes are real, the figures assigned are human-selected.

Historically (and not ancient history to me, it is all in my lifetime as a hobbyist), we did not know as well way back when that ammonia (NH3) was toxic and ammonium ion (NH4+) was harmless. And we certainly did not dream of chemical agents which could capture the molecule and lock it into the ion form. The other two do not have alternate forms, both are and stay ions, and both are toxic, just at very different concentrations for toxicity.

HTH
Where's the fish? - Neptune
User avatar
J-P
Former Staff Member
Posts: 5626
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:21 am
Gender: Male
Location (country): Japan
Location: Sasebo, Nagasaki, Japan

Re: Cycling mg/L vs. ppm simple 2 pt question

Post by J-P »

Thank you for the clairfication :) It definately helps in the understanding of how the Nitrogen cycle works :D

P.S. Flutter are you keeping up with us?
if you follow me, you avoid stepping in the crap that I just did...

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZR55G ... pqlgec1A2Q
User avatar
Flutter
Former Staff Member
Posts: 2938
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:43 pm
Location (country): Canada

Re: Cycling mg/L vs. ppm simple 2 pt question

Post by Flutter »

Well I'm here now. What do you want? I haven't checked this thread out until now :redface:
It is absurd to talk of one animal being higher than another. We consider those, when the cerebral structure/intellectual faculties most developed, as highest. A bee doubtless would when the instincts were.
Charles Darwin
User avatar
J-P
Former Staff Member
Posts: 5626
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:21 am
Gender: Male
Location (country): Japan
Location: Sasebo, Nagasaki, Japan

Re: Cycling mg/L vs. ppm simple 2 pt question

Post by J-P »

Flutter wrote:Well I'm here now. What do you want? I haven't checked this thread out until now :redface:
Nothing really, just bugging you :poke:
if you follow me, you avoid stepping in the crap that I just did...

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZR55G ... pqlgec1A2Q
Post Reply