Help! J-P's Set up

[RTR]

more detail:

I have been guilty of mis-direction unintentionally. NO = Normal output fluorescents, not an absence of fluorescents. That is in distinction from HO fluorescents, which are short for High Output. Some are VHO (Very High Output). Under current technology, only fluorescent is the only technology suited to low and middle intensity lighting. I use little or no HO/VHO fluorescents as I do no high intensity tanks - they are too time demanding . Many to most "planted tank" hobbyists (as most of the GWAPA group is locally) are HO/VHO or other higher tech lighting. but they are for specialized plant growing, they are not planted fish tanks, or even veggie filters. NO is less efficient, but all that is needed for low-tech applications. Current LED and MH (Metal Halide) lighting is not applicable to low-tech tanks. High tech means for out purposes very high investment costs, even if light is less costly per output unit. The waste heat output is remarkable. I would need an additional HVAC (heating/ventilation/air conditioning) unit just for my 8' x 14' small tank room. that is not in my budget, and not needed for what I am doing, which is growing plants to make the tanks healthier and the fish happier and healthier - a more "natural" setting for them. High tech is not needed even for the veggie filters, although I have used high tech lighting on BW and SW setups (both display and algae filters) as those critters may need it, Freshwater set-ups rarely need high-tech other than for specialized display. Folks have forgotten that even Amano made his reputation with low-tech tanks. But that is currently un-fashionable. I have never been concerned with fashion. My hobby is what suits and pleases me, not necessarily what is "in". I gave up high tech years ago - I am much too lazy.

More detail:

i have to respectfully strongly disagree with the advice give earler in this thread of one goldfish per 10 gallons of water. That is fine if you plan on stunting the goldfish. I allow 30 gallon per fish minimum, 50 gallons per fish for the heavy-bodied fancies. It pay of in beautiful and healthy and fully developed fish, without major water changes every 48 hours. If you have quality fish, give them room to swim and grow, and give yourself a fighting chance at maintaining decent water quality. My home is too warm year-round for goldfish, but I do have one old feeder (a cull) in a 33-extra long. He is stunted, over 20 years old and quite healthy despite the stunting.. Don't abuse the fish and they will reward you, not be an upkeep issue and die young and undeveloped. Off the soap box on that point.

Your set-up would be ideal for your fancy goldfish, with some veggie filters with easy submerse plants to improve the water quality. The individual tanks are too small for the few plants which can and will survive and flourish with goldfish. I would suggest minimal lighting by good spectrum tubes for viewing on the fish tanks and selected realistic silk or plastic artificial plants with the fish, and add in a couple of more brightly light plant filters (perhaps one on the same cycle as the tanks, the other reversed light cycle to even out nutrient uptake and O2 release).

The same set-up would be equally suited to tropicals with a warmer year-round temperature. The choice is yours. Don't commit to either path with considering all the needs of the critters to be kept. Plan carefully and don't have to re-build much if at all. Minor adjustments should be all that is required when the system is set and occupied. Your choice is what matters.

HTH

RTR

[Pufferpunk]

i have to respectfully strongly disagree with the advice give earler in this thread of one goldfish per 10 gallons of water. That is fine if you plan on stunting the goldfish. I allow 30 gallon per fish minimum, 50 gallons per fish for the heavy-bodied fancies. It pay of in beautiful and healthy and fully developed fish, without major water changes every 48 hours.

+1 on that!

[RTR]

Digression on the philosophy of pet (particularly fish) keeping...

I stopped back in to r-emphasize the absolute requirement for advance planning. Mistakes cost money when you have to discard them, do not perform the job needed,and prevent the set-up from working as intended. The old carpenter;s admonition to measure twice and cut once does apply. Figure out what you want and do within budget and availability and skills, and then do that. Folks who are new to the hobby seem to be constantly re-doing their tank, replacing equipment with the "new and improved", and replacing fish with horrifying frequency. You do not have to go that route. During the e-mail exchange with PP when was asking me to chime in on this thread, we were catching up on the state of our tanks. we both have tanks dedicated to "old friends" - fish that are from approaching 10 to well over 20 years old, too old to subject to different (and perhaps unknowing) care. old fish can be quite like elderly dogs - you remember them as fry and have given them years of attention. I cannot put them down unless they are in untreatable distress. Not all fish have personality, but even the shorter-lived schoolers do learn to "recognize" their care-giver. I am constantly shocked at how few folks are aware of this. Mature goldfish are far from stupid, although they lack the intelligence of many puffers and most ciclids and many loaches. My T. mbu recognized me easily, and even knew my wife (who would not be caught dead ever feeding a fish or tending a tank - smart lady that one). His behavior when either of us was visible was quite different from when others, especially strangers, were the only human in view. He was a shameless beggar - just as mature goldfish and some types of Cichlids are (Oscars win second prize after big puffers on this). Fish are pets, alive, needing appropriate housing, water of good quality, appropriate food and enough but not too much of that. More fish die from the direct or secondary effect of inappropriate feeding than anything else. The direct effects are on the fish's body, especially the liver and kidneys. The secondary effects are from water pollution and.or improper handing of such. Work out what you need and what the fish will need, and figiue out if you can make those needs match up. Large, well-equipped tank systems are not cheap. They can be insanely expensive and time-demanding. The trick is to set and maintain within time and money budgets (large or small) and still have the appropriate water and space and and upkeep for the fish you want to handle.

Thinking and planning is much cheaper than re-building. It also tends to give better results, especially when you can get feedback on you plans and ideas before trying them out from as knowledgeable a group as is available here.

[J-P]

Thank you again! Your writings are always very insightful and thought provoking. I can understand totally how costs can balloon suddenly ... haha that's exactly what happed in our situation, but I have set aside a budget for the basement re-model and we are currently within our limits.

We live in a rural area and our LSF does not carry puffers. I order my supplies online and visit a specialty shop in the next city (1.5 hour drive) for fish selection. I have considered placing a special order online but am not ready to populate the tank as of yet, so I get to that topic hopefully in the near future.

Regarding the learning curve ... I believe that is what some of us really need.. a lot of hand holding and coaching. That is the reason (I believe) that this forum is so successful.

As far as the lighting question ... I only need to purchase the bulbs and covers for the tanks. I have 40W soft florescent bulbs that I tested and they still work, as does the ballast for the tanks.

I was considering placing ambient lights and some spot lights inside the tanks to give it a softer feel when the main lights are not in use; on a timer of course. BUT... I also know that fish in general are attracted to the lights when in darkness and was wondering if that would disrupt their feeding habits.

The next topic is substrate..
I have these products to choose from:
Carib Sea Eco-Complete Plant Substrate
A mineralogically, biologically complete all natural black substrate packed in liquid amazon.

Seachem Flourite (various colours)
Flourite is a specially fracted stable porous clay gravel for the natural planted aquarium. Although it may be mixed with other gravels, Flourite is best used as an integral substrate bed. Any mixture should be at least half flourite. Gravel modifiers such as laterite are not necessary. Flourite is not chemically coated or treated, and will not alter the ph of the water. Although pre-washed, it should be rinsed before use to remove residual dust. Slight initial cloudiness is normal and will clear rapidly. Each 7 kg (15.4 lbs) bag is sufficient for about a 2 inch deep bed in a typical 10 gallon tank. Recommended use is 1 kg for about each 200 cm2 (31 in2) of tank bottom.

Red Sea FloraBase <== I'm leaning towards this one...
FloraBase is a patented, scientifically formulated substrate produced from natural volcanic ash-based soil, sintered with other minerals into a soft, porous, granular structure. FloraBase contains all of the nutrients required by plants for proper development, guaranteeing ideal natural conditions for lasting plant growth. Its soft porous, granular structure is easily penetrated by growing roots, positively anchoring plants to the substrate while providing immediate access to all of the nutrients. The porous structure also allows plant nutrients to be released to the surrounding water so that no additional root nutrients need to be added for at least 6 months. FloraBase is an excellent filter media when combined with an under-gravel filter. The unique structure of the FloraBase granule enables it to actively absorb floating substances, removing cloudiness from the aquarium water. FloraBase will also act as a pH buffer, maintaining a stable pH between 6.5 and 7.0, which is ideal for almost all aquatic plants. Each 5.4kg / 12lb. bag of FloraBase will provide the right quantity of substrate for a 40 liter / 10 gal. aquarium.

Aquarium Pharmaceuticals First Layer Pure Laterite
Ideal gravel additive for aquatic plants. Perfect for naturally-planted aquariums.

Or just simple pool filter sand that I can supplement.

[J-P]

Just tested out the powerhead ... OMG this thing is like the HEMI of powerheads! The pressure output is similar to my old pool filter. I am just a little concerned about it not having that 3rd grounding prong.

[Pufferpunk]

I was considering placing ambient lights and some spot lights inside the tanks to give it a softer feel when the main lights are not in use; on a timer of course. BUT... I also know that fish in general are attracted to the lights when in darkness and was wondering if that would disrupt their feeding habits.

Look into moonlights. I have them on my reef tanks & they look exactly as they are named--shimmer & all.

[RTR]

Hand-holding what we are here to do. Fire at will.

On substrate, you have to set what you are going to keep under what conditions first,and only then you can select the appropriate substrate for them and the set-up.

For the goldfish, coarse sand is likely ideal size and blasting sand may well be the best option. Do you have any technical detail on it?

For planted tanks with or without fishand for most tropicls, I would select a darker substrate myself - light substrates tend to make the fish and plants look pale. Mixed darkish natural relatively fine gravel is my usual choice. l have a prejudice against uniform size and color in substrates - they reek of artifiiciality. Substrates in nature are rarely completely uniform.

I don't have time tonight to detail responses on the products you listed, but I will try to get on tomorrow with some details.

It is not possible to over-filter in my opinion, but too much current is a no-no. Appropriate current for the fish and set-up is the key. I have used massive pumps for white-water fish (Buffalo head cichlids and such), but for most riverine and stream fish it is not suitable, nor do plants like strong current.

More later...

RTR

[J-P]

ditto .. I have scooped some pictures of what I would like the tank to look like and will post them tomorrow night.

This is a really interesting video ... completely off topic but it gets one thinking...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XOsitYh ... re=channel

[J-P]

Here are some stanks pics that I would like to model my own after.

[J-P]

Have been working for a while now obtaining info on various aquatic plants that are available in my area (its almost a book, I may make it a PDF). It contains their temperature range, ph levels etc... here is a list of the common plant name I am able to obtain:
Christmas Moss
Flame Moss
Star Moss
Giant Marimo Ball
Weeping moss
Pearl Moss
Java moss
Java fern
Windelov's fern
Philippine Java fern
Narrow Java fern
Anubias eyes
Anubias sp Lanceolata
Anubias broad leaf
Anubias Golden
Anubias nana
Anubias petite
Anubias sp minima
Crytocoryne crispatula var. balansae
Crytocoryne pontederiifolia
Crytocoryne wendtii green
Crytocoryne lucens
Crytocoryne lingua
Crytocoryne spiralis var spiralis
Crytocoryne beckettii
Crytocoryne wentii brown (tropica)
Crytocoryne nevillii
Crytocoryne undulata
Cryptocoryne affinis
Cryptocoryne "Green Gecko"
Plagionium
Plagiomnium Trichomanes
Pellia
Süßwassertang (Round pellia)
Crinum thaianum
Fissidens splachnobryoides
Fissiden sp zippelianus
Aponogeton boivinianus
Aponogeton henkelianus
Aponogeton capuronii
Aponogeton madagascariensis
Nymphaea rubra
Tiger lotus
Barclaya longifolia red
Echinodorus Red Rubin
Echinodorus horemanii red
Echinodorus 'Ozelot'

I know.. I know... It is a HUGE list .... I will be focusing on the "easy to care for plants" to begin with. Most have a similar ph, temperature and light requirements. I am going with the moss family, and some of the easy to care for leafy plants. Later once I know that I'm not killing everything in the tank I will be adding some of the lotus family.

My list here and the requirement / decsriptions still needs to be edited.
I'm not asking anyone to go through the pros & cons of each plant of couse ...this is just is available at my location

[RTR]

Back on substrates:

I will never again waste my time and money of any, repeat any, so-called "nutritious" substrate. This is the whole range such originated by Eco-complete. Fact: nutrient are cheap in dry and even small "bulk" form - powders. I am lazy and use Saechem's prepared nutrients, which are costly in small bottles but less so in larger sizes, and unbelievably easy to use. The nutrient in the prepackaged mixes run out unpredictably and not all together. Unbalanced ferts result in algae. how do you tell - we cannot yell, we don;t have test for everything, and that takes time and costs money. Use good substrates if you c afford them, but not nutritious substrates. Then do Tom Barr's Estimative Index with weekly 50% partials and you are home free.

Of the "quality" substrates, my personalchoice is the original Seachem flourite. I love the colors in the mix, and they appear dark in the tank, but not too dark. I use it alone or m or mixed up to 50-5- with Estes'"Nutmeg": aquarium gravel if I want the substrate to appear just a bit lighter. I do have hundreds of pounds on the stuff. I have also used standard aquarium gravels (such as the one already mentioned) over First Layer Laterite and old mulm ( I do collect and harvest mulm regularly - part of my insanity). good gravel is forever. I have been using the commercial Estes mentioned for probably 30 years - after use it washed and dried and bagged for future re-use, as does Flourite. Doesn't everyone have a storage room full of out-of-use fish tanks and hundreds and hundrteds of pounds of gravel - all washed, dried and stored in double heavy=duty Zip-locks?.

But blasting sand can also be a good substrate for certain fish, and if it lacks sharp edges it is good for diggers such as loaches and goldfish and I have used it as such. BTW, I did not bring that to this house, I knew I had to give up goldfish, so gave it all away beforewe moved.

On the pictures of tanks you like:

Top picture: this is a really nice low-upkeep tank for a substantial number of fish types. I would prefer a darker gravel or a less uniform one for looks and upkeep, but the plant selection is slow and moderate to low light, Very easy tank to set and live with., and quite attractive to me. I have used such several times for low profile tank of the small schooling fish with strong colors. The tank last for year with normal upkeep. I do plan on a setup lasting ten years. BTW, I do almost exclusively species tanks. I never do community tanks anymore, not for decades.

The second tank is also quite attractive, with quite a different look from the first, and is better suited to a higher but not tall tank. There are some mixed signals in the tank - the Crinum is demanding and best in higher light than I now use routinely, but some other plants are lower-light for me. The lily is demanding of care IMR, but quite striking if you are regular in pruning and careful with ferts. The surface cover is a hint that the keeper is cutting the light for some of the plants, but the lily will get leggier (already is a bit) with the lower light. Nice but not easy and lasting as the first one.

The third shot is fairly well done, but flawed - the symmetry is too balanced and rigid, thge path/stream/whatever shoul not dead end at the center rear of the tank - that is poor to awful. It woul look much petter if the front "island" were of-center unmistakably, and if the stream/path curved behind the opposite planted area to disappear. that would improve the design quite a lot and be more interesting to the viewer. The clean and plant-free white sand will be an upkeep nightmare - I would feel forced to replave it every moth at the outside - it cannot be maintained in place with that much contrast - an algae heaven. The planted areas are also going to be very demanding to maintain. Not in my fish tanks (NIMFT).

The next shop down is a nano tank, and quite well done. We would need an on-level views to see how well the layout really works, but such tiny tanks are a big challenge. The local planted tank club has nano-tank competitions every year or two. But the concept can be scaled up to a larger (low profile) tank and could be quite nice to my eyes. I also do this sort of tank regularly - could you tell? Our prejudices and preferences do show.

The bottom photo also looks quite good to me, although I cannot see it very clearly - enlarging does not help me, it is not very sharp (I have several such programs in use constantly - I have vision issues). The only major change I would make wouldbe aless glaring front clear gravel - that would be an upkeep issue to me. I can't see the individual plants well enough to make comments, but the color shifts and massing look well done. i love long low tanks - they are wonderful for some fish, and be real grabbers and this is potentially at least one of those.

HTH

RTR

[J-P]

Again very insightful .. yes, regarding the last tank, people have requested a panoramic view ... as for the one with the sand "path way" .. is there a substrate that is inert that will retard the alge growth? Again I come back to pool filter sand. OR unless.. there are special lighting conditions. Sorry for picking your brain like this

I have mentioned this to others online, that I consider you the father of aquaculture. I beleive that given the oppertunity, with this semi-unique set up, I can do with FW Puffers what others have done with Neon Tetras and Mollys.

[Pufferpunk]

Not in my fish tanks (NIMFT).

Now you all know who I got this from...

[J-P]

Not in my fish tanks (NIMFT).

Now you all know who I got this from...

haha is that in the acronym list??

[J-P]

I was discussing in chat with a bunch of members.. 1 or 2 Fahaka puffers in the 250 gal ..or have a school of SAPs ... I am completely torn .... but I may be ahead of myself. I sill have alot to leran before I populate the tank.