Help! J-P's Set up

[Pufferpunk]

How many total gallons is this entire system?

[J-P]

How many total gallons is this entire system?

it is rated at 500 gallons, but without structure, substrate, fish etc... I count 460

[Pufferpunk]

Have you checked to make sure it holds water--no leaks?

[J-P]

the only way I can see this thing working on a single filter is:
1) populate heavily with plants.
2) introduce 1 fish per tank and take measurements
3) introduce critters and take measurements
4) slowly add 1 fish per tank in reverse order and after each fish is introduced take a measurement (aprox 1 week).

OR have FW jelly fish in the 2 tanks without filters ?? but that's risky

[J-P]

Have you checked to make sure it holds water--no leaks?

after it gets moved tomorrow / today ... like I mentioned forward thinking ...

[Pufferpunk]

Has this system ever been set up & running successfully?

[J-P]

Has this system ever been set up & running successfully?

yes it has.. but the shop it was in, closed down due to a lack of customers.. it was a close out sale in a very small town.

the question was / is how much vegetation and what type was along the bottom to allow for adaquate filtration? How much vegatation in each sub tank to supliment the main filter ... in theory it is the ideal cyclical enviroment

[J-P]

Woo hoo... after 2 months finally got the tank in ... will start cleaning and leak testing ASAP. BTW I tookout all the electrical you see in the pictures, it just didn't look right.

keke I'm sooo excited!

[RTR]

Hello J-P, I'm late to the party,and only lightly skimmed all the prior posts, so I will have a lot of questions but they can be held for later. PP sent up smoke signals and talked me into coming back here. I did the veggie filter article you saw at Badman's. I have been running circulating ranges, veggie filters, multi-sump setups, etc. for an embarassingly long time now - well over 30 years, both FW, BW, and SW. Primarily FW & BW the last 20+ years and currerntly FW-only.

If you want to see my tank room a couple of years back, go to:

http://gwapa.org/wordpress/2007/08/august-2007-meeting/

That set of pictures includes one of the emerse veggie filters connected to the circulating range (9 tanks with one emerse and 2 submerse veggie filters plus a W/D filter. The submerse filters are not pictured. The rock-wall African tank also has a submerse veggie filter which is not shown. That tank duo is a simple tank over sump setup.

My first and primary question for you would be an idea of what the aim of the tanks will be? Breeding? Purely and simply keeping fish for a goodly lifespan in optimum health? Purely aesthetic? What do you plan to keep? And are you aware of the upkeep any significant water volume requires?

Filtration is simple in theory, only becomes complex in application. Water quality is not simple - it is unbelievably complex. After all the tank-years i have had in this hobby, I am still just beginning to learn. But PP's signature line always applies :"The answer to pollution is dilution."

[J-P]

Mr. (Dr?) Ricketts It is a HUGE honour to have you here. Thank you very much.

I am aiming to keep an Aesthetically (damn I need to learn how to spel!!) pleasing enviroment and maintain the fish for as long as possible.
As for "What to keep" If possible I would like some Dwarf Puffers and South American Puffers. The rest of the population is yet undecided (with the exception of 2 Rinkyu and 1 Dojo which we currently own).

The tank was designed to provide a single point of filtration for multiple tanks. In Aquaponics, using typical vegetable matter, it is said, filtration is unnessary as the vegetable matter clears the water of any contaminants. on a 50-50 basis. Meaning a 10 gal tank would require 10 gal of vegetable matter.
"The "commercial" farmer take on this form of filtration is called Aquaponics. The best site I've seen for learning about this method of raising fish and vegtables can be found here: http://www.aquaponics.net.au/. Its a commercial site but still loaded with great info- they dont just push the products they sell.
Here is a great description from the Aquaponics site I've referred to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUHnU2zGYrg. " <=== but I don't beleive it all that much.

This design is a little different as it uses aquatic plants for filtration (in theory).

Water demands will be great during the winter months here as it is very cold and dry. The room it is kept in is aprox 65 degrees F.

Once I can establish the tank and improve my skills, through tutelage, I would consider breeding, but that is in the far future.

Again thank you for the reply.

[J-P]

RTR:
is a "submerse veggie filter" the same as a refrigerum or a totally different beast?

Thank you

[RTR]

No thanks necessary. I enjoy challenges, and multi-tank systems are a challenge to design and set and fine-tune. Then they are pathetically easy to operate. There are major pitfalls to be avoided along the way and we will talk about those a they come up.

First, concepts:

Refugium: This is a four-bit word to encompas a simple idea. A refugium is a segregated or sequestered area of a larger whole. When you have a tank and a sump, the sump may be labeled a refugium. In hobby practice, we usually limit 'refugium" to a restrticted area for something living, so animals or plants. But in the real sense of the word, even biofilters are refugia (the plural of refugium) - the are shelters for chemotropic bacteria which use nitrogen compounds for energy: ammonia oxidized to nitrite, that nitririte in turn oxidized to nitrate by other bacteria in the same area. They are living things in a sheltered area. So I use the term myself broadly. An external filter is a refugium for bacteria, obviously to me. An internal filter likely is sheltered in some manner so the contents are undisturbed, so to me may also be labled a refugium. but i admit that on the boards it is better to call things by their commonest names, so I call biofilters just that, and call mechanical filters by that double name. Chemical filters I also refer to by that term. Plant filters are usually algae filters or vascular plant filters - moss filters are little harder to label distinctly, so I call them moss filters. Use the term that is clearest to you, and if someone does not get the idea, they should ask for clarification. I certainly do and will.

Emerse veggie filter: To me this a vascular plant filter using plants which grow above the water. In the pictures I ref'd before, the 20-long with largish Crinums (Florida Swamp Lily cultivars) growing out of it is an emerse plant filter. The plants do not need O2 or CO2 from the water (thus do not deplete the water's O2 during their dark cycle). They are commonly nutrient-hungry plants, so-called gross feeders, that snarf up any nitrogen available when they have sufficient light. That tank has 4x40W NO fluorescent tubes over it, On/Off 12 hours each per 24 hours. At the time of that photo, I think the tank looked like it had about 6+ inches of substrate. It really has only ~2". The rest is big, fleshy roots of the large bulbs of the plants. I harvest several leaves almost every day - the lower ones get shaded by newer foliage constantly. That is nitrogen and other nutrient export from the system. Every other year, the tank needs to be thinned of bulbs and re-set wit only 3 bulbs. That is massive nutrient export of sequestered (locked into the plants) nutrient derived in large part from dissolved fish waste.

Submerse ( or immerse) veggie filters: To me, these use true aquatic, or seasonally submerged plants which will grow indefinitely under water, to absorb nutrients from the water. Nutrient export is by pruning or thinning of the plants periodically. This particular application is the one I believe you refer to as Aquapontics. That term is not to me particularly generally used among those I know - most of use prefer to describe the grow condition of the plants.

There is in reality a third but generally unlabeled format: Just use the removed water from partials to feed house, greenhouse, or garden plants. That too is valid nutrient export. Plus it makes us feel less guilty about the massive volumes of water we use. My water changes are piped to my banana grove in season. They flourish with that watering.

OK, detail:

Temperature: 65F is too low for almost all puffers. Puffer are found all around the world, almost exclusively in the tropics. They are a poor choice for cool tanks. It would be fine for the goldfish if they warm up in the summer. When you are working with multiple and or large tanks, it is impractical to have the room at one temperature and the tanks at another. the thermal mas is against you. My tanks are not heated by heaters. They are heater above room temp. by waste heat from the multiple pumps and filters that I use, plus some extra from my low-tech lighting, requiring me to have several open-topped tanks to allow for evaporative cooling to keep the tank down to merely tropical temp. in the upper 70sF. This needs more thought and planning.

More details tomorrow...

HTH, RTR

[J-P]

"NO fluorescent tubes over it" The tank set up I have purchased it does have fluorescents built in, and showed signs of carbonation .. burning .. as they were not covered. I was debating whether to take the out or not. As per you suggestion I will remove them, both for the benefit of the plant life and the danger to burning down the house

I have purchased some ambient and spot light LED lighting. In your opinion is LED adequate to sustain plant life or should I choose halogen lighting?

I have ordered acrylic sheets for the tops of the tanks that will help with evaporation if properly planned. I beleve these should be of the slider type that can be opened during the humid months and closed during the winter months. Acquiring a tank heater or providing additional ambient heat is not a problem at this point.

As our set up is not designed for grey water, I can not provide tank water changes to external plants.

The "submerse veggie filter" is what I know as hydroponic fish tanks,
the "Emerse veggie filter" is what is currently coined as "aquaponics"

It is the submersive veggie filter / hydroponic system that we are after. There is a current swing in this trend (again) and I am willing to learn more about it.

Please forgive my cat for walking all over the keyboard...

[J-P]

Hello J-P, I'm late to the party,and only lightly skimmed all the prior posts, so I will have a lot of questions but they can be held for later. PP sent up smoke signals and talked me into coming back here. I did the veggie filter article you saw at Badman's. I have been running circulating ranges, veggie filters, multi-sump setups, etc. for an embarassingly long time now - well over 30 years, both FW, BW, and SW. Primarily FW & BW the last 20+ years and currerntly FW-only.

If you want to see my tank room a couple of years back, go to:

http://gwapa.org/wordpress/2007/08/august-2007-meeting/

I hope you don't mind that I have shared this link with others on this forum...

[J-P]

This was a private message:
"For a refugium or like he is talking I'd go with straight florescent light bulbs, nothing high output. Something like this http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... catid=9869

There are different types of lights to consider, Florescent, Compact Florescent, T5 HO (high output), Metal Halide, and Incandescent, going up in intensity as listed. For plants normal florescent lighting is sufficient."

Now, my not so lcocal sells plant specific light bulbs .. I know there are many options out there... but for a noob like myself the choices are limitless