Whats wrong?

[jaydo22]

ive had my puffers for almost three years and never had a problem untill about a week ago my daughter threw them a cooked shrimp which they nibbled on but i found most of it uneaten a few hours later. since then they have all stopped eating and one of them looks really sick sunken belly and swimming irradically. would a cooked shrimp do this much damage? or is it just a coinsidence and my puffers got sick at the same time? ive started a pimafix regiment today is the first day, is there any other advice someone can give me on trying to keep the little guys alive? it would be really appreciated thanks....

[Myaj]

There could be a few different things that may have happened, but the most likely one is since they didn't eat the entire shrimp and it was left to rot, there may have been an ammoina spike. I find it hard to believe that would happen within a few hours, but it is possible.

It is also possible the cooked shrimp had some preservatives in it or something of the sort.

Either way, your first action is always clean water, start doing water changes and if you have test kits, check your ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels (so you know what you are at and how much it needs to change).

[jaydo22]

thanks.... so if it does end up being a spike in ammonia or nitrate how do i even off the levels?

[LilGreenPuffer]

Lots of water changes. An 80% change is probably in order. Check the ammonia and nitrite. If you don't have tests, get some ASAP.

Just in case this isn't the right diagnosis, though I'd bet it is, can you please answer these questions?

Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.

1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.

2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.

3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)

4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.

5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.

We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.

For future reference, raw foods only!

[jaydo22]

okay i only have cheap water testing kits but this is what it says
nitrate 120 ppm
nitite 0 ppm
alkalainity 200ppm
ph 7.8
i have a 72 gallon tank with 4 spotted puffers and two figure eights i change the water once a week 25% , i only feed them mysis and on occasion bloodworms. after discovering the shrimp i did a 50% water change and the nitrate levels are still super high. would it still be safe to do a 80% 2 days after a 50% water change?

[LilGreenPuffer]

Nitrates need to be 20 or lower! Do a 90% change. Large, frequent water changes are totally safe. What are your ammonia levels? Are you using any salt?

Your tank is seriously overstocked. You need to clear out a lot of fish. Green-spotted puffers grow to 6" and need at least 30g each, and figure 8s need 10-15g each. Even in a properly stocked tank, you need to be doing at least 50% water changes weekly. Honestly, you need to pick one puffer species, and get rid of the others. If you choose the green-spotted puffers, you'll need to get rid of two of them, as well as the F8s.

Also, green-spotted puffers require a lot more salt than figure 8s. Here is some reading for you to do.
ug.php/v/PufferPedia/Brackish/T_Biocellatus/
ug.php/v/PufferPedia/Brackish/T_Nigroviridis/
library/puffers-in-focus/an-introductio ... d-puffers/
library/puffers-in-focus/fig8/
library/feeding/feeding-your-puffers/

[jaydo22]

salinity is 1.019 but the testers i have do not read ammonia levels

[LilGreenPuffer]

You should definitely get an ammonia test.

You are now at full saltwater levels. Figure 8s really need to be in less salty water. Did you read the articles?

A protein skimmer will help you to keep nitrates WAY down. In SW, you should use live rock (about 1-1.5lbs per gallon of water) and a skimmer for filtration. This is expensive at first, but it will save you money in the long run because you won't have to do such big water changes. Do you have any live rock at all?

[Myaj]

OH my goodness, those nitrates are off the charts!

Bump up those water changes, do a few smaller ones the first few days (so as not to shock the fish by changing the water parameters TOO much all at once) and then a few big ones.

And yes, you are way too overstocked. A single GSP needs about 30 gallons by itself once it is full grown. Even if yours are not full grown, your numbers are showing that there's just too many fish in there.. 20 or less is best for puffers (they are sensitive, have no scales, and are easily stunted).

I would agree, pick a species and adjust your stocking levels. That high of salinity is not good for F8 puffers, they much refer to be down nearl 1.003-1.008.

[jaydo22]

i do not have any live rock...did a big water change last night and everybody is starting to get back to normal....so what do you suggest that i do with my other puffers? ive had them for so long ive grown attatched... i dont have time for another tank so what can i do?

[Myaj]

This is why its important to research any animal BEFORE you buy it, even fish.

Your choices are pretty simple.

Get another tank (or two) and split them up.

Find homes for some of them (advertise, find a local store that will take them as trade)

Or leave them as is and watch them have stunted growth, shortened lifetimes and general poor health.. btw, these fish should easily live 10+ years

Food too is something you might want to look into. A varied diet is really good for them, and these guys do best with crunchy foods. Even just some raw, frozen shell on shrimp from the grocery store would be good, or you're going to need to be trimming teeth eventually if you keep up the diet of soft foods.

In the mean time though, you're looking at doing BIG water changes quite often to keep those levels down to a healthy range. That will buy you some time.

[LilGreenPuffer]

If you've gotten attached, then the last thing you want to do is see them suffer.

[bazil323]

For the 2 Figure 8s, you can get by with a 25g tank (15 for the first one plus 10g for the second=25g). Or you need to rehome them (or rehome the GSPs and lower the salinity on the 72g to 1.005-1.008).

You can only have 2 GSPs in your 72g tank, I'm afraid. You need 30g for each GSP, so 30g + 30g=60g. Adding another would need 90g. Since your salinity is already up where the GSPs need it and it would be time consuming to lower it to the level that F8s need (no, the 2 species cannot coexist at a lower or medium salinity), it would make more sense to rehome all but the 2 GSPs you are most attached to. This overstocking is the most likely reason for your puffers' odd behavior.

The only reasons cooked shrimp could be bad for the puffers are as follows:
1. There were preservatives in the shrimp.
2. There were spices, etc., on the shrimp.
3. The shrimp was left in there to rot (should be fine if taken out within a few hours).

[Dadof4]

The only reasons cooked shrimp could be bad for the puffers are as follows:
1. There were preservatives in the shrimp.
2. There were spices, etc., on the shrimp.
3. The shrimp was left in there to rot (should be fine if taken out within a few hours).

Actually cooking denatures (chemically changes) the protein structures and can make it very difficult to digest. Fish can't cook their food (that whole fire/heat under water thing..) and shouldn't be given cooked foods. Sometimes tiny amounts are OK but for a staple it's not good. Think about humans, we evolved to eat cooked food, imagine what would happen if you ate a belly full of raw beef...your body wouldn't be used to it and, even though it wouldn't kill you, you wouldn't feel too well for a few days. A few good examples of denaturing protein is cooking eggs ans pickling meats. Egg whites (mainly consisting of the protein albumin) start off as clear and as heat is applied the protein structure changes making the "whites" opaque. Pickling meats has the same result, you expose the proteins to acids (vinegar) and the protein structure changes visibly (turns whitish).

[bazil323]

Interesting, Dadof4. I never knew that, but it makes sense. I always thought that you don't feed cooked foods just because they lose nutrients in the cooking process and any seasoning/oils/preservatives that are added are bad for fish. Now I'm glad that I've never feed cooked foods (love, love, love prepackaged frozen fish foods).