Impatient Cycling

[Jivenjune]

No, the bacteria can use the ammonia after you use Prime. It doesn't affect the bacteria at all.

I think what some of the members are arguing for is that by treating the tank with Prime, I would starve any remaining bacteria regardless. I'd question how long prime remains active at removing ammonia before an ammonia buildup resumes its normal status. From my understanding, bacteria (as long as it's submerged in non-chlorinated water) can sustain its life for at least a short period of time. The exact digits, I'm not quite sure.

Truthfully, I just wanted to know if it was possible to increase the salinity by at least .004 per week without crashing everything within the tank. Too risky at the moment, it seems. I'll be patient. It's just interesting to know whether it's possible or not if anyone has actually experimented with this through rigorous testing.

[bigfatfish]

Not sure it is something I would risk. I'd take the "patience is a virtue" route!

[LilGreenPuffer]

No, the bacteria can use the ammonia after you use Prime. It doesn't affect the bacteria at all.

I'd question how long prime remains active at removing ammonia before an ammonia buildup resumes its normal status.

I think that it's 24hrs. If anyone else knows differently, do please say so!

[Dadof4]

No, the bacteria can use the ammonia after you use Prime. It doesn't affect the bacteria at all.

I think what some of the members are arguing for is that by treating the tank with Prime, I would starve any remaining bacteria regardless. I'd question how long prime remains active at removing ammonia before an ammonia buildup resumes its normal status. From my understanding, bacteria (as long as it's submerged in non-chlorinated water) can sustain its life for at least a short period of time. The exact digits, I'm not quite sure.

Truthfully, I just wanted to know if it was possible to increase the salinity by at least .004 per week without crashing everything within the tank. Too risky at the moment, it seems. I'll be patient. It's just interesting to know whether it's possible or not if anyone has actually experimented with this through rigorous testing.

Yeah, it has been tested that .002 is the maximum amount you can increase in a weeks time. Basically what it amounts to is osmotic push/pull. You have to move slow when raising SG because inside the bacterial cell there is sodium/potassium/protein dissolved in the plasma. The dissolved amount is roughly equal to what the SG (in a round about way) is in the surrounding fluid (your tank water) give or take a slight amount. I won't go in to an in-depth lesson on osmotic push/pull (unless you'd like me too), but this balance keeps fluid from rapidly shifting in and out of a cell. If you increase the amount of sodium and potassium in the surrounding fluid by too much and upset this balance you will cause a massive shift of fluid (fluid moves from the lowest concentration of positive ions to the highest concentration) from in the bacterial cell to the outside of the bacterial cell causing cell wall collapse and death.

As for the Prime, it chemically binds to ammonia to form Ammonium leaving it available to nitrosomonas bacteria. I don't think there is a time limit on how long it stays bound. Remember if you have ammonia in your tank and use something like Prime and test after adding it you may get a false positive ammonia reading because ammonium and ammonia are so chemically similar.

[Jivenjune]

Well, I just purchased two separate hydrometers, and they're both giving different readings. I have one of those glass thermometer hydrometers and the swing-arm type of hydrometer. The swing-arm type I just received today from Drs. Foster and Smith. It indicates my current salinity as being between 1.015. The bouncy looking thermometer one indicates it to be at roughly 1.010-1.011. I take it that the swing arm type are more reliable?

Tank hasn't question, though I haven't been raising the salinity by anymore than .002 per week and sometimes only raising it by that much every two weeks. I guess there's no point to being impatient; I'm already almost done with hitting marine salinity. Marine is considered 1.020?

Thank you for info, Dad. Much appreciated. Same with everyone's replies.

[bazil323]

Oh, that makes sense. I've never really read into Prime or the like as I'm on well water. I just assumed that however it neutralized made it unusable for the bacteria, good to clear that up.

[Jivenjune]

No, the bacteria can use the ammonia after you use Prime. It doesn't affect the bacteria at all.

I think what some of the members are arguing for is that by treating the tank with Prime, I would starve any remaining bacteria regardless. I'd question how long prime remains active at removing ammonia before an ammonia buildup resumes its normal status. From my understanding, bacteria (as long as it's submerged in non-chlorinated water) can sustain its life for at least a short period of time. The exact digits, I'm not quite sure.

Truthfully, I just wanted to know if it was possible to increase the salinity by at least .004 per week without crashing everything within the tank. Too risky at the moment, it seems. I'll be patient. It's just interesting to know whether it's possible or not if anyone has actually experimented with this through rigorous testing.

Yeah, it has been tested that .002 is the maximum amount you can increase in a weeks time. Basically what it amounts to is osmotic push/pull. You have to move slow when raising SG because inside the bacterial cell there is sodium/potassium/protein dissolved in the plasma. The dissolved amount is roughly equal to what the SG (in a round about way) is in the surrounding fluid (your tank water) give or take a slight amount. I won't go in to an in-depth lesson on osmotic push/pull (unless you'd like me too), but this balance keeps fluid from rapidly shifting in and out of a cell. If you increase the amount of sodium and potassium in the surrounding fluid by too much and upset this balance you will cause a massive shift of fluid (fluid moves from the lowest concentration of positive ions to the highest concentration) from in the bacterial cell to the outside of the bacterial cell causing cell wall collapse and death.

As for the Prime, it chemically binds to ammonia to form Ammonium leaving it available to nitrosomonas bacteria. I don't think there is a time limit on how long it stays bound. Remember if you have ammonia in your tank and use something like Prime and test after adding it you may get a false positive ammonia reading because ammonium and ammonia are so chemically similar.

Out of curiosity, is ammonia similar to nitrites as ammonium would be to nitrates?

[Dadof4]

The ammonium would still break down in to nitrites like ammonia would.

[Jivenjune]

The ammonium would still break down in to nitrites like ammonia would.

I was thinking more in terms of toxicity. Is ammonium equivalent in terms of toxicity to nitrates? Or is ammonium more toxic of a substance?

[Dadof4]

Ahhhh! Misunderstood! Ammonium is harmless but it breaks down to nitrite.

[Jivenjune]

Ahhhh! Misunderstood! Ammonium is harmless but it breaks down to nitrite.

Thanks. Much appreciated.

[mrgreen]

Dadof4 for his chemistry knowlege!

[Pufferpunk]

About the hydrometers--I believe the glass ones are very accurate, IF you know what temp they have been calibrated for. The swing arm ones are also very accurate, IF you have it calibrated against a calibrated refractometer or calibrate it yourself with calibration solution. My public aquarium uses the swingarm type.