Mouth Lesions (was FW Blackspot disease?)
Forum rules
Read this before posting!!
Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.
1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.
2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.
3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)
4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.
5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.
We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.
While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.
Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
Read this before posting!!
Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.
1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.
2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.
3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)
4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.
5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.
We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.
While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.
Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
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RTR
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Sorry I'm late to the party, but FW "Black Spot" is as digenetic nematode infestation, and fish are not the definitive hosts. Birds are. Infected birds poop in the water which must have the right snails, first generation is in the snails, that infects fish where they form hard encysted black spots visible on/in the skin. Stable for years in that form until the fish is eaten by a bird, the cysts hatch out and infect the bird's gut, starting the whole process over. The condition is not at all infectious in captivity in tanks.
What you have/had is not that condition.
What you have/had is not that condition.
Where's the fish? - Neptune
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Bred
- Former Staff Member
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Well, we took Gunther to a vet yesterday. $260 later...
She did a swab and all she could tell us without sending it to a lab (another $120) was that there were red cells and white cells and lots of bacteria. Gee, thanks lady!
She gave him an injection of Bicillin and sent us home with 5 more hypdermics to administer ourselves. When we got home, I held gunther while my girlfriend force fed him pulpified krill and vitamins with a syringe. He puffed up a couple of times but seemed to swallow a decent amount of food down. This will likely become a daily habit until he starts eating on his own - it's been 4 weeks since that happened! He's looking pretty skinny...
The epic battle continues...
One other thing (RTR), she mentioned it might be fish TB. She said if that were the case, the tank would need to be thrown out. I said, "wouldn't bleach kill the bacteria" and she said no, not really. This was after she said we should "make his water briney... i think there's something you add once a week for that".
Not the most knowledgeable vet in the world, but this was the only clinic that had the brass to even see a fish.
She did a swab and all she could tell us without sending it to a lab (another $120) was that there were red cells and white cells and lots of bacteria. Gee, thanks lady!
She gave him an injection of Bicillin and sent us home with 5 more hypdermics to administer ourselves. When we got home, I held gunther while my girlfriend force fed him pulpified krill and vitamins with a syringe. He puffed up a couple of times but seemed to swallow a decent amount of food down. This will likely become a daily habit until he starts eating on his own - it's been 4 weeks since that happened! He's looking pretty skinny...
The epic battle continues...
One other thing (RTR), she mentioned it might be fish TB. She said if that were the case, the tank would need to be thrown out. I said, "wouldn't bleach kill the bacteria" and she said no, not really. This was after she said we should "make his water briney... i think there's something you add once a week for that".
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ChesapeakeSwellfish
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- Pufferpunk
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Bred
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My thoughts exactly - holding a 7" puffer and sticking him with a needle is something I hadn't embarked on until today. I swear I saw his eyes widen when the needle went in.
Interesting note about injecting fish: according to madame vet the needle should be placed right next to the spine from above, where there is the most 'meat'. Every day, you alternate the side of the spine and move down towards the tail so you're not affecting the same spot over and over. Obviously, you want to start far enough down from the skull that you're not poking into the brain.
It's been an adventure. I just hope the wee man gets it together soon. It's been a traumatic time, these last few weeks. Looking at pictures of when I had just brought him home, it is clear that he was already carrying some disease. Used to be such a happy puff... Until we forced food down his throat, I was seriously considering euthanizing him. I hope some progress can be made in the next few weeks - this really is our last ditch effort.
Interesting note about injecting fish: according to madame vet the needle should be placed right next to the spine from above, where there is the most 'meat'. Every day, you alternate the side of the spine and move down towards the tail so you're not affecting the same spot over and over. Obviously, you want to start far enough down from the skull that you're not poking into the brain.
It's been an adventure. I just hope the wee man gets it together soon. It's been a traumatic time, these last few weeks. Looking at pictures of when I had just brought him home, it is clear that he was already carrying some disease. Used to be such a happy puff... Until we forced food down his throat, I was seriously considering euthanizing him. I hope some progress can be made in the next few weeks - this really is our last ditch effort.
- Pufferpunk
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- Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 11:06 am
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T lineatus
T miurus
A modestus
T biocellatus
C valentini
C coranata
C papuan
C lorteti
DPs
suvattii
burrfish
T niphobles - Location (country): USA, Greenville, SC
- Location: Greenville, SC
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lisalisa
- Pufferpunk
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- My Puffers: Puffers I have kept:
T lineatus
T miurus
A modestus
T biocellatus
C valentini
C coranata
C papuan
C lorteti
DPs
suvattii
burrfish
T niphobles - Location (country): USA, Greenville, SC
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Bred
- Former Staff Member
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Yeah, high tensile strength. Unless you have something very sharp like a needle or scalpel, you have to press quite hard in order to get enough friction to make the incision.
Leathery is the right word - despite the fact that these fish are scaleless, there is a definite texture to the skin. Possibly on account of the spines.
Leathery is the right word - despite the fact that these fish are scaleless, there is a definite texture to the skin. Possibly on account of the spines.
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ChesapeakeSwellfish
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First, this fish has got a conscientious owner - nice to see someone take responsibility for his pet like this.
Is the puff struggling during the injection? We inject thousands of fish with hormones to force spawning at our hatchery (in the dorsal musculature like you are doing) - but before we inject them, we anesthetize them. Makes a huge difference with fish that would beat themselves to death during an injection. Fisheries anesthetics of choice are tricaine methane sulfonate (also called triple2 or 222 - Argent Labs) and more recently, phenoxyethanol.
Unfortunately, I have no idea how puffers respond to these chemicals. The 222 goes into solution best, but some fish go under faster and recover better with pheno. (Maybe somebody else here has tried one on puffers?)
Tough work - injecting a frightened animal who cannot know that you are trying to help him - my hat's off to you.
Is the puff struggling during the injection? We inject thousands of fish with hormones to force spawning at our hatchery (in the dorsal musculature like you are doing) - but before we inject them, we anesthetize them. Makes a huge difference with fish that would beat themselves to death during an injection. Fisheries anesthetics of choice are tricaine methane sulfonate (also called triple2 or 222 - Argent Labs) and more recently, phenoxyethanol.
Unfortunately, I have no idea how puffers respond to these chemicals. The 222 goes into solution best, but some fish go under faster and recover better with pheno. (Maybe somebody else here has tried one on puffers?)
Tough work - injecting a frightened animal who cannot know that you are trying to help him - my hat's off to you.
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Bred
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Thanks Chesapeake...
Sounds like you have a pretty interesting job!
The puff doesn't struggle during the injection. He resists being held at first and it can take a few tries, but once I have him resting in hand I just wait a few minutes for him to get comfortable, and he does. Which is pretty lucky for us!
The force-feeding is a slightly different story. His mouth is in extremely rough shape and obviously causes him pain, so he tends to resist more and puffs up. Holding a puffing puffer is strange... It was more of a half-puff, really. The force-feeding is definitely a two-person job.
I anesthetized him once in order to inspect his teeth when he had first stopped eating, using clove oil - the anesthetic of choice around here.
Sounds like you have a pretty interesting job!
The puff doesn't struggle during the injection. He resists being held at first and it can take a few tries, but once I have him resting in hand I just wait a few minutes for him to get comfortable, and he does. Which is pretty lucky for us!
The force-feeding is a slightly different story. His mouth is in extremely rough shape and obviously causes him pain, so he tends to resist more and puffs up. Holding a puffing puffer is strange... It was more of a half-puff, really. The force-feeding is definitely a two-person job.
I anesthetized him once in order to inspect his teeth when he had first stopped eating, using clove oil - the anesthetic of choice around here.
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Bred
- Former Staff Member
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An update -
The antibiotics are working! I haven't noticed any of the white pus being secreted from his pores, skin bumps are less noticeable, and his mouth seems to be healing (again). Only one more injection left though...
Force feeding has been working too! Tonight the wee man swallowed down nearly an entire syringe. Yay!
He's been swimming around his quarantine tank more, so I guess he's getting his energy back.
Add this one to the symptoms though: curvature of the spine. Columnaris? Fish Tuberculosis?
Things are looking good right now. I'm still concerned about the long-run, though. He needs to start accepting food on his own, and I hope his immune system has been bolstered enough to tackle the disease on his own. Fingers crossed!
The antibiotics are working! I haven't noticed any of the white pus being secreted from his pores, skin bumps are less noticeable, and his mouth seems to be healing (again). Only one more injection left though...
Force feeding has been working too! Tonight the wee man swallowed down nearly an entire syringe. Yay!
He's been swimming around his quarantine tank more, so I guess he's getting his energy back.
Add this one to the symptoms though: curvature of the spine. Columnaris? Fish Tuberculosis?
Things are looking good right now. I'm still concerned about the long-run, though. He needs to start accepting food on his own, and I hope his immune system has been bolstered enough to tackle the disease on his own. Fingers crossed!