Discoloration Of my Samurai

[lexbubble]

My samurai puffer (Tetraodon erythrotaenia) has become a little darker on the sides. I know that GSPs darken up when they get upset or are about to feed but I'm not sure if samurai's do that. plus it's not the belly thats darkened but the sides. Is my boy sick or just in a bad mood?

[Jase]

depends. what are your water parameters, tankmates... actually, can you answer all the questions in red above?

[Pufferpunk]

We can't help you without your answers to the Qs above, in red.

[lexbubble]

Sorry I didn't even read the bright red and pink box stating "Read this before posting!!". I was just anxious to post and get a reply. The tank is a 29 gal and used to be a cichlid tank (I have 3 other cichlid tanks and I've always loved puffers so I converted that one) so the pH is a little high for puffers but not too much. it's about 7.6. I don't check the ammonia, nitrite, nitrates, or salinity really. I do add salt. Aquarium salt. It's been up for over a year and but the other cichlids and rocks have been removed within the last two weeks. The tankmates are as follows : Figure 8 puffer, samurai puffer, green spotted puffer, a red claw crab, two crawfish, a pleco, three snails, and a jacobfreibergi (a cichlid). I feed them freeze dried krill once a day and I change approximately 20% of the water once a week. All my products are made my API. I use the stress zyme (bacteria) tap water conditioner, stress coat (to help with the stress of the water change or when I see nipped fins) and the aquarium salt I mentioned earlier. All are used as directed except the salt. I use a little more than recommended. The cichlid is not aggressive at all toward the puffers. The green spotted puffer has actually been amongst cichlids for more than a year and in the same tank with this cichlid for a while. It's probably nothing but I'm just so excited about my little guys I watch the tank all the time and notice every little thing and since I've never had this type of puffer before I don't know what to expect. Thanks for taking the time to read this

[Pufferpunk]

Your tank is overstocked. My feeling is that the "Samuri" puffer is feeling intimidated by all those new fish with him. I highly suggest getting yourself some test kits & start doing 50% weekly water changes, starting tomorrow.

Please read the articles in our Library on F8s & GSPs, for recommended tank size, care & feeding.

Your pleco will not appreciate any amount of salt & will grow quite large, if it the commonly sold species. He also puts out a ton of waste.

[Dadof4]

Ok, a couple of things I can see right away. Let me preface this by saying I'm relatively new here, the more experienced people can give you more info.

First, the tank is too small and overstocked. The GSP, by itself, requires a 30 gallon or larger, the Samuri needs about 30 gallons alone also, the figure 8 would do ok in there by itself. Puffers are territorial, aggressive, and messy eaters, plus the bio-load they produce is quite large. Unlike cichlids the theory of schooling them to decrease aggression doesn't work.

Second, you need to get you water parameters checked! Take a sample to your local fish store and get it checked for ammonia, nitrates, nitrites, and pH. Puffers are very sensitive to their water parameters and with the load in that tank you may have a very high ammonia level. You really should monitor the water parameters listed at least weekly.

Third, aquarium salt does not make water brackish. You need to use marine salt. Marine salt contains minerals and trace elements needed by your fish. Brackish water is a mix of seawater and freshwater, not saltwater and freshwater. Also, of the puffers you have, two like high end brackish water to marine conditions and the figure 8 likes lower end brackish conditions. Please get them in to true brackish water, read the pufferpedia to get on each puffer you have and aim for the conditions stated there.

Your doing good by doing water changes weekly. I would do one ASAP, switch to daily 50% or every other day 75% for now and leave out the aquarium salt. Go buy a hydrometer or refractometer and some marine salt so you can test SG on new water mixed with marine salt and buy a test kit for the above mentioned parameters.

[lexbubble]

I know that all the puffers I have are brackish and I know that I need marine salt not aquarium salt, however I also know that the other two puffers I have are very much adaptable to freshwater. My GSP is proof positive of that being in freshwater tanks for over a year and doing very well (he has never come down with any kind of disease). As far as aggression goes I have always been a firm believer that fish have personalities and it all depends on the conditions as to whether they will be aggressive towards each other or not. Albeit most puffers are aggressive and territorial, but books and other peoples own personal experiences are just that. I've always mixed fish people say should not be mixed and alot of times things worked out (I'll be very honest though, sometimes books and people are right on and the fish do exactly as they say). So far, my experience with my puffers has been good to say the least. They follow each other around and play in the bubbles and no one has been bitten and no one has any missing fins. I agree 100% that the tanks needs to be upgraded. I have my cichlids in a 55 but as soon as I move they are getting a 150 and the puffers will get the 55. How does that sound? more or less? I figured they would be ok in the 29 for now because they are all small plus they get along well. The crabs, crayfish, and the snails are all in there as food for the puffers. It's just that the lazy puff balls rather eat the easy food and pay no mind to the crayfish. Also I'll get a test kit ASAP.

[Pufferpunk]

1 year is an extremely short time in the life of fish that can live into their upper teens. Juvies may do fine in FW but as they get older, there will be problems. At least read those articles in our Library, before you decide we don't know what we're talking about here.

[lexbubble]

The biggest problem with forums is that there is a big chance that there will be a misunderstanding. I wasn't trying to say that you guys don't know anything or that I know more, I was just letting you know my own personal experience

[Pufferpunk]

Since there are many people here with long-term pufferkeeping experience (keeping BW puffers into their teens, for example), I only suggest following their lead.

[flash.dan]

as you have this post and a post with reference to you F8 looking unwell i would suggest taking some advice oof people on here. Keeping chilids is nothing to keeping puffers as i keep both i even can go as far to say i have my large mbu in a chilid tank at the moment!

but..... Puffers are very very very fussy about tankmates a F8 GP and red line will not go well with each other. i have a strong feeling with a pleco adding a huge bioload on the tank the ammonia spikes will kill them before long.

My suggestion is either setup a few other tanks pref 1x FW 1x BW 30-60 gallon each.... and split them or rehome the pleco and redline as they will not really appreciate BW for long and will suffer.

[Jase]

I thought we agreed that red lines were brackish...?

[Myaj]

Wow.. you sure have a mess on your hands.

Yes, as was said, none of your fish really have the same "needs" when it comes to water. I'm not familiar with the "red line" puffer, but the Figure 8 and GSP need quite different water types.

People who have done controlled tests during 30+ years of keeping puffers, have found, unanimously, that GSP's live significantly longer, healthier lives when started in lower brackish water and moved into high brackish water through their lives, and Figure 8 puffers do better when kept in low brackish. Keeping a GSP "alive" in freshwater for a year is not that impressive. Stunting one by keeping it in a tank that is not only too small, but massively overstocked, is quite a bit less impressive.

Survival vs quality of life.. if you take on the responsibility for an animal's life, please do your research and do what is best to keep it healthy long term. To be honest, you've probably already done a lot of damage to your fish if they've been in this situation for a year, mostly in the stunting department, and that will show up as the fish ages and problems caused at a young age catch up with it.

But yes, long story short, your new puffer sounds like it is stressed by the conditions it is in, your nitrates are probably sky high, there's too many fish crammed into a small tank (btw, a 29 really only holds 25 gallons and even less when you consider gravel/decor), and of course, the whole freshwater/brackish issue.

[Agnate]

so the pH is a little high for puffers but not too much. it's about 7.6.

For brackish fish, a pH is 8.0 - 8.2 is preferred. As such, I wouldn't consider your pH to be too high, so no need to worry about lowering it.

I don't check the ammonia, nitrite, nitrates, or salinity really. I do add salt. Aquarium salt.

When you switch over to a brackish aquarium, you'll have to monitor the salinity more closely. If the swing in salinity is too large, you'll crash your biofilter. Because puffers are scaleless, they're extremely susceptible to toxins (ammonia and nitrite), which means that a momentary crash of the biofilter will cause you and your puffer a lot of headaches. It's also why puffers require "cleaner" water (ie. lower nitrate readings), because of this increased susceptibility.

The tankmates are as follows : Figure 8 puffer, samurai puffer, green spotted puffer, a red claw crab, two crawfish, a pleco, three snails, and a jacobfreibergi (a cichlid).

What are the sizes of all of these? Although I agree with some people that this is "overstocked", that opinion heavily depends on the size of the fish, particularly the Green Spotted Puffer, the Pleco, and the Cichlid.

I feed them freeze dried krill once a day

Krill has been linked with lockjaw in puffers, so I'd suggest providing a larger variance of food types. That's not to say you can't feed Krill, but you shouldn't use this as a staple food.

but books and other peoples own personal experiences are just that. I've always mixed fish people say should not be mixed and alot of times things worked out (I'll be very honest though, sometimes books and people are right on and the fish do exactly as they say).

Isn't this backwards logic? The idea of a general statement is that, in a majority of the instances, the statement is what results. Simply because you've had good luck keeping species that generally don't do well together doesn't disprove the books or people, nor should you be disproving them on a single experience. Generally, human beings can live together in a civil manner without causing each other too much turmoil. If I were to live with someone with whom I fight and bicker with everyday (thus causing a significant amount of turmoil), does that mean that the general statement about humans living together is untrue? Sure, it can mean that the statement isn't ALWAYS true, but there aren't very many books or people who advocate such a bold statement.

We have set up this forum to share our experiences with puffers and to transmit the useful and (usually) correctly proven information regarding puffers and their well-being. You have come to a forum and requested assistance, and then ignored or discredited our suggestions by boasting that "alot of times things worked out" and implying that others' experiences aren't worthy of your consideration. Personally, this is both impugning and disrespectful, as I believe one should always consider all sides of the argument before passing a judgment. You've even statement that you've had a generally good experience with puffers, so I'd suggest you take into consideration all of the bad experiences we've seen/had and try to take some preventative measures. Believe me, I don't take any pride when someone says "I told you so."

With that said, the help we attempt to give people with regards to stocking and water conditions is as correct as possible. Puffers are a highly sensitive fish, and require larger volumes of water to minimize the chance of high toxin levels. The reason our "recommended sizes" for tanks are higher than EVERYWHERE else (and I mean everywhere) is because there is a tremendous difference between surviving and thriving. We quote larger recommended volumes of water to make both the owner's and the puffer's life easier and less stressful. If you disagree with our information (which you're more than entitled to), then you'll need to back up your arguments with more factual and consistent information.

I'm sorry if I sound abrupt, but we've had a number of new arrivals claiming that our forum is wrong/incorrect/ignorant/disrespectful/elitist/arrogant, and I'm having to spend more and more time defending our posters and keeping the peace.



In conclusion to my ridiculously long post, I'm getting the impression that some of the posts in this forum are approaching the realm of spiteful. As such, we need to put our opinions aside and get back to the topic of the unhappy puff, of which I have tried to give some feedback about at the top. If anything strikes you as misleading from what your original understanding was, please don't hesitate to respond, as we're always willing to try and help. If you are unhappy with anything being posted, please feel free to message any member of the TPF team and we'll be happy to resolve any issues you may have.

[Pufferpunk]

Very well put & thank you for contributing to the peaceful, happy posting at thie forum.

My suggestion is either setup a few other tanks pref 1x FW 1x BW 30-60 gallon each.... and split them or rehome the pleco and redline as they will not really appreciate BW for long and will suffer.

I thought we agreed that red lines were brackish...?

I woke up this morning and mine was slgihtly black bellied. I freaked out cause I have only had him for one day!!! So I broke down and added a small amount of marine salt to the tank. Less than 1/3 cup in a 25 gal. He seemed to pep up a bit after I added the salt. His belly whitened up as well. Not sure if it was because of the salt but he ignored the bloodworms this morning and after the salt was added he went into hunting mode....I will proabably add a bit more tomorrow and keep him around 1.002. I didn't want a brackish tank so I will try to keep it as low as I can.