fluviatilis extremely dark and lethargic

[StormySkiez]

I wondered about the salinity change when doing WC's and the effects on the bio filter. No matter how we do it at one point the salinity level must change more then .002 when adding the FW, then adding the brackish water or vice versa. Is it not doing harm because of the short time it is in those conditions?

Arkose in their natural enviroment changes of salinity would not have the same effects as confined in a tank. I believe the tetraodon fluviatilis did better in the salt bath because it might be getting to the point of needing a higher salinity like tiger mentioned. I did not see what your salinity is at. I may have missed it. Fluviatilis require high end brackish as they grow and do need aprox 40g per fish. The biocellatus req low end brackish as you know. I would be looking to seperate these fish asap to avoid issues.

[riggers]

I think PPs right, they've gone now. But I agree StormySkiez, changes in salinity will not have the same effects on puffers in the wild, as the transition would be a bit slower, and they would stay in the different salinities for longer, which would give their bodies time to adjust. By just keep changing the salt levels all the time is something they won't be able to handle properly. They may be dealing with it at the moment, but long term they may not as it's probably weakening their bodies. So yeah I agree they can handle changes in salinity, but not the regular sudden changes you're putting them through. And of course the main issue is the bacteria, but StormySkiez, I don't think the salinity would change by 0.002 because you are taking out salt as well as water, so the salinity should stay the same. It's evaporation which would cause a change, but that's a slow process so I wouldn't think would make a huge difference if you are doing water top offs.

[Myaj]

Stormyskiez, I don't get what you mean about the salinity changing during water changes?

If my brackish tank is at 1.005, I mix up my water change water at 1.005.. no salinity change there? I top off often, so big swings from evaporation are not a worry.

[StormySkiez]

When we do a water change on my 1.008 salinity tank We take out around 30% of the water. Then we add about 25% FW, the last bucket has the mixed brackish water to equal the total volume of water taken out back to 1.008. This can take about 5 mins (sometimes longer) to do with the filter left running. I wondered if adding the clean FW then mixed brackish water like that could cause problems.

[riggers]

Why don't you just mix up the 25% brackish as well, that way there won't be a problem. I'm not sure whether 5 mins would be enough anyway, but just to be on the safe side you could mix it all up as BW.

[StormySkiez]

Don't have a container large enough to do it in (or space for a large container) not to mention a way to syphon it into the tank....

[indie]

I just use a bucket for my water changes and each bucket is mixed to brackish. I just pour the bucket into the tank.

[StormySkiez]

I fill the tank w/ FW with a python. One bucket for the brackish water. I thought most of us w/ pythons did brackish tanks like this.

[Pufferpunk]

Since for the past 10 years, I have been doing it simarly (filling w/Python, while pouring salt into my HOB filter), I don't think your way is a problem. Maybe while the tank is filling, you can pour the salty water at the same time?

[arkose]

hi , its not my intention to insult anyone ,

if someone tries to help another without expecting anything in return it can be considered a good deed, though in this case i feel there is no assessing just some generic questions and responding to the form of the answer not the real content of the problem whatsoever. when one posts on a board like this one expects the expertise of a wintered puffer lover that can relate to the specific problems that puffers might have not some generic answer which can be posted in a thousand other forums relating to other fishes.

for the salinity question , i dont change the salinity just on occasion when i feel like it , when i change the water for about 30 percent there is an outtake of salt also when the water is replaced and when this is done weekly one cannot always exactly match the previous concentration.threrefore there is a slight difference with before the same happens when some water evaporates, this is common knowledge .

maybe the misunderstanding is because some people feel inclined to adhere to the worst thoughts about others that come to mind. maybe there is a sense of eliteness towards onesself and a subversive and patronizing stance towards others.

i hope i dont insinuate any agression towards others , but i feel like a puffer forum should be a place where the people are just as much respected as the puffers.

il post some pics of the puffers at a later date to make it up

bye

[riggers]

Well that's good of you to come back. These aren't generic answers though, they are very true, as bacteria can't survive if the salinity is making big changes. I also think there may have been some confusion here. I don't know about everyone else but I was under the impression that you were purposely making large changes in salinity but from what you've just said it is slight changes when there is evaporation etc. is that correct, or am i missing something? Could you give some figures so we know how much your salinity is changing? And believe me people here do respect each other, just sometimes people get frustrated if the person they are helping seems to not be listening to what they say. You would be surprised how many people ask for help and then get angry when people tell them something they didn't want to hear. You bear it the first time but if it happens repeatedly people get frustrated. After all we are just after the best interests of you puffer, we are not out looking for a fight.

[Agnate]

i hope i dont insinuate any agression towards others , but i feel like a puffer forum should be a place where the people are just as much respected as the puffers.

Although I do agree that it may have seemed a bit harsh from your end, you need to consider our point of view as well. We have MANY requests for help in the hospital forum, and almost all of the requests are from people with little or no knowledge of fishkeeping. Thus, when a new user posts in the hospital forum, we ask them for as much information as possible and list all of the more obvious "solutions" to problems (such as someone accidentally changing the SG by an extreme amount, or someone never changing their water, or having an extremely high nitrate count). Although you displayed some inclination that you understood the basics of fishkeeping, you never explicitly stated this (for instance by saying you've been keeping fish for X years). As such, we have to make the assumption you DON'T know certain specifics about keeping fish, and then build on that assumption based on your responses.

maybe the misunderstanding is because some people feel inclined to adhere to the worst thoughts about others that come to mind. maybe there is a sense of eliteness towards onesself and a subversive and patronizing stance towards others.

Unfortunately, jumping to conclusions about members of a group puts you at a disadvantage. You've stumbled across a forum where we not only respect puffers, but almost worship them (in a sense) as any other pet lovers would exhibit affection for their companions. With that said, in your initial post you posted a picture of your puffer presumably out of the water while you gripped him with an un-gloved hand. There are many things about that situation that we dislike, such as exposing a puffer to oxygen where they have a high chance of inflating that oxygen (which can potentially kill them) and that you're exposing a scaleless fish to the various oils from your skin (which is deemed harmful). Comparing this situation to a dog, it would be similar to showing us a healthy picture of a dog while you've forced his head under water and are holding onto him with sandpaper; it may not kill him, but it's certainly not the most appropriate way to handle a pet, especially for the purpose of procuring a photograph. Believe me when I say you would have been met with much worse posts in a canine forum if you had posted an image similar to what I described above. So, if you're wondering why we seemed a bit harsh, then hopefully this has shed some light on our initial reactions.

in this case i feel there is no assessing just some generic questions and responding to the form of the answer not the real content of the problem whatsoever.

No matter where you go, you'll initially be met with common (and not "generic") solutions to problems, namely because it's more common for these solutions to be correct. This occurs everywhere, not just forums (think about when you go to the emergency room in a hospital, or to a new family doctor). Judging from your post, I would have requested information about what you were feeding your puffers, as bulging/bloated puffers generally implies constipation. However, as we all know, animals are all different in their own right, and it's not easy to diagnose a problem based off of a quick description. We usually suggest some immediate solutions based on what you've given us (which can appear to be generic), but probe for further details if we think that the situation might be something else (such as asking for the feeding schedule, water change schedule, and frequency/magnitude of salinity changes). It's equally insulting to us when someone makes a single post and expects everyone to know exactly what the problem is, and then when they don't get a definite answer, they become defensive and harsh with those attempting to help.

when one posts on a board like this one expects the expertise of a wintered puffer lover that can relate to the specific problems that puffers might have

Although we are a puffer forum and we have a great deal of knowledge about puffers, it isn't to say we're the equivalent of medical doctors. Many illnesses exhibited in puffers are common to other species of fish, so you'll often get a similar diagnoses from other non-puffer fishkeepers. The difference here is that we know (more or less) the methods and medicines that are puffer-safe, as well as what some attitudes/behaviours might imply about the puffer's situation. Again, I can't state this enough that puffers are very different on an individual level (much like dogs or cats), and it's very difficult to diagnose a specific situation without a past history and general understanding of how the puffer acts on a normal, regular day.

Believe me when I say that you won't find a nicer group of people, nor a more refined bank of information about puffers anywhere on the internet (at least, not in English). I've been on hundreds of forums, and these are the kindest people I've met. So I'm a bit skeptical of any person who comes and claims that we're all elitists who don't want to help, and that we're sitting too high on our horses.




As for the actual problem/questions, the reason we ask about salinity changes is that your version of a "small change" can be very different from my version if neither of us is quoting accurate measurements. Generally, a fluctuation in salinity larger than 0.002 SG results in a significant die-off of beneficial bacteria. Because puffers are scaleless, they are incredibly sensitive to toxins (ie. ammonia and nitrite), and even trace amounts of these toxins can cause immediate distress and behavioural patterns similar to what you've been experiencing. Thus, we always ask about salinity, as this is one of the more common problems people face with puffers.

You said the puffer seems fine now. Did you notice a swollen or enlarge rectum, or perhaps a larger-than-usual bowel movement, by chance? Hopefully he was just having a bad day and things are better now.


Please note, this wasn't intended to disturb the peace or flame anyone, but I felt some things that were posted needed some immediate clarification. Hopefully we're all in agreement and can continue on with helping each other out. I'm sure you have lots of knowledge to share with us (as well as pictures!) and we're all eager to hear about your puffer experiences.

[Agnate]

Yikes, sorry for the novel... I get a little carried away when I type.

[Myaj]

Yes, but you did an excellent job of it Paul Especially the point about the puffer being held out of water.

Arkose.. you have to understand, you keep making general statements that are not very true, that most experienced fishkeepers understand. For example:

or the salinity question , i dont change the salinity just on occasion when i feel like it , when i change the water for about 30 percent there is an outtake of salt also when the water is replaced and when this is done weekly one cannot always exactly match the previous concentration.

That is very incorrect. This is why they make tools for measuring your salinity, hydrometers and refractometers. These are very accurate tools, and simply by checking your salinity prior to a water change and mixing up your new water to match the salinity (or keep it within .002), you avoid swings, and therefore, biofilter crashes.

On this forum, we are more concerned with the proper info getting out there than letting "bad information" slide.. so if you state something like the above, which someone completely new to puffers could read and follow and potentially kill their fish, we are going to immediately step in and correct the info to prevent someone else from making that mistake.

[t1gerbee]

we just try and help... we ask the questions we need to assess/rule out/confirm what the problems may/may not be...

all in the aim of helping the puffer... end of. No elitism, no snobbishness, no subversion...

just trying to help.