Quinine sulfate and puffers?

[Recty]

How do marine puffers deal with quinine sulfate treatment? Specifically for dealing with a case of ich?

[crazedpuffer]

There are much safer less risky ways ti treat ich.I would not use it.
Have you read the article on ich in the library?

[Recty]

I have read it, hyposalinity isnt an option for me, copper isnt good, so I'm trying out the quinine sulfate option.

[Pufferpunk]

Could you please explain your situation?

[Nick]

I have heard flubendazole based medications are actually quite effective against marine ich and velvet, but having never had marine ich, havn't been able to try it. One would have to remove mechanical filtration and skimming for the duration of treatment, but a SW tank with powerheads should remain stable for that period.

[Pufferpunk]

Never good to add any meds to your main system.

[Recty]

I'd agree that for the beginner, there are probably a lot better things to do than treat your entire tank for a disease.

I've always been a big fan of quarantine, it just isnt going to happen now as I've been there and it didnt work. I quarantined all my fish but somehow I've got ich in my tank, which sucks after quarantining all fish for at least a month, some up to 2 months and seeing no sign of ich. I even treated the triggers with copper and they were spot free the entire time.

I've got about 5 fish with ich. It isnt bad. Right now, I just cant deal with having to run 4 seperate quarantine tanks. I have aggressive fish that wont stand being in a 30g or even a 55g tank, especially not for 2 months while the tank runs fallow. I need to treat my main tank and kill the ich in it.

I know copper is hard on puffers. I've read lots of evidence that cupramine can be used on puffers as long as you are vigilant about maintaining levels. I really dont want to do that though and I have lots of live rock which would make keeping the copper in solution basically impossible.

So, I'm going with the quinine sulfate option. The other option was hyposalinity but I've decided not to go that route, UNLESS someone on here tells me that puffers definitely cant handle quinine sulfate.

I've read lots of accounts of quinine sulfate being used to treat sharks which are even more touchy with medicines than puffers, both are scaleless and seem to share a lot of the same features. Anyway, if a shark can handle it and come out of it eating and healthy, I'm led to believe that a puffer can do the same.

Anyone actually treated a puffer with quinine sulfate?

At the very worst, if the puffer cant handle it, I'll catch him out and put him into a 29g quarantine and do hypo there, but due to my job being traveling, there are days I wont be home and wont be able to top off the water, maintaining 1.009 salinity probably isnt going to happen so I wouldnt rely on hypo actually being effective.

Basically, I'm just wondering if anyone has treating with quinine sulfate and what effects it had? I'm set on using it, I just need to know if the puffer will be able to pull through it ok. I know all my other tank inhabitants will be able to deal with it.

[Pufferpunk]

Are you aware that using any meds in your main tank with LR, means the LR will absorb a great deal of the meds (undertreating) & they will release them back into the tank (possibly overdosing) at any time?

[Nick]

Perhaps leave the fish in the main tank, and treat there, QTing the live rock at full SG for two months to kill the ich through a fallowing process?

[Recty]

Please dont take this rudely, because it isnt meant to be Seriously, it isnt. I just dont have time to discuss whether I'm going to do the treatment on the main tank or not. It's going to happen to save my fish. What I need to know is if quinine sulfate is dangerous to puffers?

Do either of you have experience with quinine sulfate? I am far from being a newbie to saltwater, I'm just new to puffers. I am fully aware of how bad it can be to treat the main tank with medication, in this instance is it going to happen. Quinine sulfate doesnt get absorbed by the rocks like copper does. It's a common misconception that copper is ABsorbed by live rock, when it isnt. Instead it is ADsorbed, the difference being ADsorbed copper basically coats the very outside of the rock, it doesnt become ABsorbed (enter into solution with the rock) and become part of it. I havent read about it for a while now, but I remember from when I was in schooling adsorbtion is partly caused by van der Waals forces. It's a physics thing This makes it so it is easily wiped off, easily blown off, basically easy to come off at a time when you dont want it.

Quinine sulfate doesnt do this. It isnt ABsorbed or ADsorbed. It stays in the water, in solution. It actually evaporates, but it wont bond with other materials in your tank. As far as display tank safe medicines, quinine sulfate is about as good as it gets when you're talking about killing ich, which is indeed my plan.

Anyway, sorry if that seems rude or like I'm lecturing, I'm really not. I came here because I really do what help, I need to know if anyone has any experience with puffers and quinine sulfate. I'd hate to be the first one, but it's starting to sound like I just mine be!

[Pufferpunk]

I an not familiar with that med but I do know puffers are very senesitive to ich meds & many can burn their skin/gills, causing it to peel away.

Not to start an argument about copper but I believe Kelly Jedlicki (Puffer Queen) to be the foremost expert in treating puffers & sharks for diseases. She has stated many times that copper is ABsorbed by sand & rock.

"Are you using copper in a tank with substrate??? Substrate and anything porous (rock) will absorb and leach copper making obtaining a therapeutic level difficult and could lead to toxicity."
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10352&p=104178&hilit=copper#p104178

[Pufferpunk]

I found this:
Quinine Sulfate
USE: Resistant strains of Ich (especially on scaleless fish). Protozoans, sliminess of the skin and Rams disease (whirling disease). Also good for resistant strains of Hexamita when combined with Metronidazole.

DOSAGE : 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons of water. Treat one time and leave in the water for 5-7 days.

For resistant Ich in a central system, treat once every three days with a 25% water change before each treatment. Do at least 3 treatments = 9 day period.


QUININE SULFATE
As it stands now, Reef Show has been advised bythe finest manufacturer of fish related medicines that Quinine Sulfate is the best treatment for marine and fresh water fish. Mixing 1/4 teaspoon of QuinineSulfate per ten (10) gallons of quarantine water and allowing the fish to remainin the tank for 5 days with good aeration is the recommended procedure.

[Pufferpunk]

After further searching on WetWebMedia, Bob Fenner recommends Chloroquine phosphate for treating a DT for Crypt, over quinine sulfate. Again, I cannot tell you how a puffer will fair with this med. It's an anti-malaria drug.

LOL, Bob did correct someone stating copper ABsorbtion & said ADsorbed.

[Recty]

Hey, if Bob says it I wont argue It's been a while since I was really into this. When I first started saltwater I was all gung-ho and I never do anything halfway. I learned EVERYTHING I possibly could use or thought I might later. Then after a while I calmed down, now I'm trying to dredge back into those memories.

Thank you for doing some research for me. And I agree that there are people who know more about puffers than me, about everyone on this site I still think that even though that knowledgeable lady said absorbed, it is actually adsorbed. But we can agree to disagree on that one, it doesnt really matter as I'm not going to use copper on my DT.

I did some reading just a couple mintues ago too and saw them posting about using Chloroquine phosphate. I checked around with the local vets and wasnt able to find anyone who even had the stuff, much less anyone who would sell me some. So I ditched that route as I might be able to eventually get it, but I need to treat NOW.

I'm going to try the quinine sulfate and see what happens. If the puffer starts freaking out or acting like it's harming him beyond just a little stress, I'll move him into QT and deal with hypo in a small tank. I'd really rather just get them all cured in a big batch.

I've been posting a lot about this on Reef Central by the way, some people there recommend the quinine sulfate which is what made me start researching it. One lady does treat puffers with it and says she has no problems but I was really hoping some more puffer experienced people would have some day about it. If it can treat sharks successfully, I'm hoping it will do the same with puffers.

I'll definitely keep a log of things and pictures and keep you guys in the loop if you want, it cant hurt, someone has to be the guinea pig, or in this case golden guinea fowl!

[Pufferpunk]

I have been reading that QS is safe for fishless fish but not too sure about using any anti-parasitic in a main tankk as it will most probably kill off all your inverts whatever lives on/in your rocks/sand.