Puffers and Ich... Truth behind the retail please!

[Hydrokal]

Some of you may remember my fight with my adopted porc and his bout of ich and whatever got him due to stress and lowered imunity due to not eating healthy and fighting off the ich. Well I have been researching around local stores and such in hopes of maybe getting another, a baby this time that I can raise on my own.

Almost every store I go to tells me that every puffer has ich, and while they can get it to go away short term, it is ALWAYS there to return when they get slightly stressed. It would seem that you all have good experiences with your puffers in general, so I would rather ask you guys than continue listening to LFS's.

Is it true that no matter what you do the ich is coming back?

What if when I first get the puffer, regardless of signs of ich, I put him into an established QT with hyposalinity for 4 weeks? is that it? will the ich just be done at that point? can I be safe in feeling as though he is done with ich forever barring any additions of livestock containing ich?

Help! I want another puffer, but I dont want the constant stress of fighting ich every few months!

[Jase]

no, once you kill it, it's gone (unless you reintroduce it). and there is no need for hypo if everything looks good. I think QT might be longer, but I'm not positive, so wait for another opinion.

[Agnate]

You only get a re-occurrence of ich if you don't treat it long enough and don't practice proper methods of sterilization with the equipment.

Anytime you hear "the ich is cured short-term", it's because the person doesn't understand the parasite. Ich can appear to be "cured" because it actually falls off of the fish, lands on the substrate, and then produces more ich (which then attaches to the fish). In open water, this isn't a huge problem (since there's tons of water movement and fish are rarely in the same places when the ich falls off). However, in a closed-system environment, it gets out of control pretty quickly (as I'm sure you've already experienced).

If you get a puffer and put him into QT, you're doing it the smart way. You can technically put your puffer into hyposalinity for 4-6 weeks (I also can't remember the exact number of weeks, but it is AT LEAST 4 weeks, so I'd do 5-6 weeks, just to be safe). Personally, I would if you're getting a Porc, as they almost-always come infested with ich, and you're better to be safe than sorry.

If your treatment method was medicine-related, I wouldn't suggest treating them on suspicion. However, hyposalinity is safe for the puffer (assuming you have the bacteria required to sustain a brackish environment). In preparation, I would do the following:

1) Get 2 hang-on-back filters with bio media and sponges of some sort, and 2 spare heaters (50 watts each should do it).
2) Get 2 spare rubbermaid bins (maybe around 20 gallons or so, depending on the size of your filters and your QT).
3) Hook up 1 hang-on-back filter and 1 heater to each bin.
4) Fill each bin with water. Put one bin at around 1.015 SG, and the second bin at exactly 1.009 SG.
5) Perform a fishless cycle of both bins (while the filters are running, of course). We have an article about it in the library.

This way, when you get your puffer, you can bring the QT down to 1.016 SG for the first day (and use the appropriate filter for it). Then in a day or two, you can lower the SG down to exactly 1.009 SG and use the appropriate filter for that SG level. This way you completely avoid an uncycled tank problem. It seems like a lot of work, but if you have the extra equipment kicking around, well worth it.

[Pufferpunk]

In open water, this isn't a huge problem

I've never seen ich on a fish in the ocean.

[Hydrokal]

I am glad that it appears as though it IS fixable.

That does seem like a lot of work, however it may be worth it. I am setting up a new tank as it is, it is not cycled, not even filled or anything yet. If I were to cycle it at 1.009SG and have everything set at that then have an acclimation tank ready for the puffer, could I technically just put him into the tank that was cycled and fully ready at 1.009sg (being the display tank) and then after the 5-6 week period slowly bring the SG back up to normal 1.023 level over the course of a couple of weeks?

I suppose this wouldnt work because it would destroy all bacteria... Setting up a 5-6 week tank for a little puffer is going to get me killed by my wife

[Agnate]

Well, if you're setting up the tank from scratch, that will be a lot easier. Set up the tank without any substrate and cycle the tank at exactly 1.009 SG. The only trick with this is that you'll need to acclimate him over a slightly longer period, as going from 1.018 SG to 1.009 SG can be a bit stressful. I acclimated my Ceylons over about 1.5 hours in a bucket using a half-tied airline hose from the main tank into their bucket, so you'll probably be okay to acclimate in reverse if your puffer is HEALTHY (if he's sick, this might not be so easy). Are you familiar with acclimating at all?

However, you can't raise the SG to marine levels over two weeks because you'll lose the bacteria. Your best bet is switch it over from 1.009 SG to 1.020+ over a couple of hours (buy a bunch of cured live rock, put your puffer into a bucket, change the SG to marine, put in the live rock, add puffer back).

Ideally, you want to QT your live rock for a month to make sure there's no disease on it, so if you can get hold of a powerhead (not a filter), a heater, and a rubbermaid bin, you can just set this up in a basement and put the live rock in it for a month, adding some ammonia to the water every couple of days. Since you don't need the live rock right away anyways, you could pick it up at the same time as the puffer, and then everything will be ready to go at the same time.

[Hydrokal]

Allright, let me go over my idea here and you could kindly criticize the bejesus out of it for me and make it correct and then I can start making plans!

For the main tank I would set it up with lights, heater, 1.009sg water and a spare magnum 350 canister filter. No sand, No rock, nothing but fishy and water.

I plan for this to be a 75g tank with sump. So I could set the sump up so that it is effectively a closed loop and keep that at 1.020+sg so that I have a bacteria colony started into the sump when I switch the main tank over to 1.020 it will have a head start and have minimal cycling.

Buy a rubbermaid container, and my liverock, set that at marine sg and leave it with no light, a power head and a heater, let that run and toss some ammonia in through the process.

When the 6 week process is over, I put the puffer in a bucket, set tank up to 1.020+, add in rock, set sump to begin filtration, add live rock, acclimate fish, and stick him in and we are on our way right?

Sound about like what I should be planning?

Now, one little catch. I plan on getting totally dry, dead baserock and sticking one of my fully cured pieces into the rubbermaid with it just to culture it. Do you forsee this as a problem at all? Would this be changing my needed methods?

Also, lets say I want to get a yellow tang to go with the little puffer, could I just toss him into the same tank and let them acclimate together? The fish store I shop at has nice healthy fish, its just that they tend to get little bouts of ich every so often, so any fish I get from them will be going through hyposalinity before they touch my puffer water.

Thoughts please!

Thanks for all the help by the way Agnate!

[Pufferpunk]

Bringing any fish from 1.009-1.020 is way too much of a shock. Raise the SG in the QT over a week, by doing daily water changes with saltier water. That way, any ammonia from the tank uncycling wil lbe removed by the WC.

[Myaj]

I've never tried to change a fish that quicky from one salinity to another, so I have no idea on if it could be done that quickly. Personally, I'd probably wait out your treatment, then once its over, keep your sump going separate, keep your live rock in its tub, and start raising the main tank gradually over a few days to a week as Jeni recommended. Then when you get to your goal, move in the live rock, hook up the sump and away you go.

Otherwise, the plan looks excellent to me. Although if you are going to do the "dead rock" route, you could probably put some of that in your sump and the live rock chunk (or a few smaller pieces) too, boost your sump biofilter from the start.

I think, although some may say if the fish looks healthy don't bother, that this is a very good idea. You already know the store has ich in its livestock, so unless you know they completely disinfect every tank before changing the fish in it, and its not on a centralized filtration system AND they always wash their hands and disinfect their nets, buckets, hoses, etc.. any fish you buy from them will be exposed to the parasites. And ich is a typical parasite.. as long as the fish is healthy with a good immune system, you may never see a sign of it. But as soon as the fish gets stressed out, here comes the ich to take advantage of the weakened state.

As far as why Ich comes back.. it has a 28 day life cycle. Medications and salinity can only kill the parasite when it is in vulernable stages of its life cycle.. so if you only treat for a few days, all of the parasites that are not in vulnerable stages (eggs, etc) will continue on with their cycle as if nothing happened and continue to reproduce. So you have to treat for a full 4 weeks FROM THE LAST SIGN OF ANY VISIBLE ICH to be sure you got all of it. If you treat for 3 weeks, and see more ich, then only treat for another week.. you very well might have missed some that is just going to start all over again.

So you are looking at a minimum of 4 weeks of Qtine, IF the fish has no signs of Ich. If it does, you're looking at longer.


However, with the mention of your wanting a tang for this tank, I went back and looked at your tank size.

I would NOT recommend getting a Porc for a 75 gallon tank, even with a sump. Its too small, physical dimention wise, for a full grown porc to be comfortable. Generally 120 is the minimum size tank recommended for a porc.

If you can find one, a lined burrfish would go well in that size tank. They are similar to porc's, but don't get as large.

If you are going to go through all this trouble to ensure a healthy fish, you might as well do it right.. or you'll be upgrading the tank and dealing with all the hassle that goes with that before you know it.

[Agnate]

I definitely agree with the tank size requirement. There's no point in going through all of this hassle if you're going to have to upgrade the tank.

Yeah, I suppose transitioning over a week would be somewhat easier on the fish. If you purchase some Prime dechlorinator and dose this during the changeover, you can greatly mitigate the risk of toxins becoming present in the tank until it is at the proper marine level. Prime detoxifies ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate into less toxic forms, which is good for emergency or unstable situations (ie. a transition between salinities where the amount of bacteria is not stable).

[Pufferpunk]

Just remember, burrfish/spiny box have a poor sucess rate in captivity, as is shown in a thread going on now in our Hospital forum.

[Myaj]

I'll have to check that out Jeni.. I haven't had a single problem with Paris since I got her.. maybe I'm just really lucky! I did make sure she was accepting food before I bought her, and put her through a very good deworming, though.

A warning with Prime.. it smells horrible! If you use it, don't be surprised when you open the bottle. Its great stuff and I swear by it, but man does it smell!

[Pufferpunk]

That was actually a warning to Hydrokal, about their poor sucess rate. Devlin was doing great, until I had her shipped... Never needed IP treatments or anything--always pudgy too.

[Myaj]

Aww, the little bugger didn't make it? I have to wonder if the "horns" on their head have anything to do with sex.. Paris has never developed them and I'd like to think she's nearly full grown now.

I know you were warning the OP, I just missed the other thread and wanted to check it out. I really have a soft spot for these burrfish now. They are touchy, they need to be fed at least every day to stay pudgy.. they lose weight fast. I read one account that said they should be fed several times a day, but Paris will only eat once a day.

I probably should give her another deworming just to be safe.

[Pufferpunk]

I think the horns are more pronounced when juvies.