Clove oil: scientific long term effects?

[coldmachineUK]

Hi

I've heard anecdotal reports that exposing fish to long-term use of clove oil, as an anaesthetic, can cause damage inc. of brain tissue. I've never read anything scientific to back this up despite searching. All I can find are scientific reports on the use of clove oil for long distance shipping to minimise stress etc. and mostly these reports relate to large species.
Does anyone have any articles/links on this subject?

I'm interested because I'm now on my third or fourth DIY SAP dentistry and I notice they seem slower to shake it off each time despite the levels (of clove oil and water) being the same (as described in the article in the 'pedia). If there's a lack of 'evidence' out there I may start doing straw polls and vague opinion surveys to gather together material on this because I think it's an important issue.

So, to other SAP owners:

• What is the largest number of occasions on which you have performed DIY dentistry on the same SAP?
• Have you ever lost an SAP who didn't wake from the anaesthetic and if so how many times had you used this technique on the same fish previously?
• Have you noticed a gradual increase in the time it takes for a fish to shake off the anaesthetic over the times you have used the same technique/dosage on that fish?
• Have you noticed any unusual behaviour following revival from anaesthetic after the first 5 minutes (during which time distressed fish may exhibit unusual behaviour in any event): e.g. bizarre swimming behaviour, refusal to take food over a period of days following an anaesthetic. (NB. I've not experienced this but if 'brain damage' is cited as a symptom of long-term clove oil use then it's worth exploring just how this has apparently been observed)?
• Have you ever noticed any visible permanent damage to your fish (on scales, eyes, fins, and so on)?

[Nick]

I believe that most of the symptoms you describe have been observed before, if you do a search, I think there has been discussion of this. Finquel is no recommended as a superior anaesthetic, and I the info on clove oil was scary enough that the one time I have had to trim a puffer's teeth, I did it without the oil.

[coldmachineUK]

Yes I've read about Finquel but there are concerns which amateur aquarists (i.e. people who aren't vets in other words) should have regarding its application and so I dispute the idea of it being 'superior':

1. The application of clove oil is more passive;
2. Dosing of finquel requires extreme precision: overdosing is a higher risk than clove oil;
3. In liquid form it can be stored only for 1 week;
4. In the UK I believe it's restricted by license to veterinary practices only.

So, rather than look at clove oil vs. finquel I'm more interested at this point in gaging the precise dangers of clove oil which seem poorly documented. Then I (and hopefully others) will be better equipped to make a decision.

[recombinantrider]

All I can find are scientific reports on the use of clove oil for long distance shipping to minimise stress etc. and mostly these reports relate to large species.
Does anyone have any articles/links on this subject?
[/list]

No, I can't find any scientific reports about clove oil's long term effects after repeated use either. The most relevant study I found was this one:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/jour ... 7/abstract
that followed the physiological stress response up to 72 hours after using clove oil as an anesthetic on 15cm long chinook salmon, but NOT after repeated use. Sorry TPF is not allowing me to upload pdf attachments so you may have to look it up if you're interested.

[Pufferpunk]

Puffer Queen did mention that CO stops the breathing of the puffer which can resulte in brain damage from starving the brain of O2.

I lost 1 puffer from this but it was very skinny. It did wake up (took a longer time than the others), never swam right & died within 24 hours..

[coldmachineUK]

Thanks for those replies!
That article definitely looks like it'd be of value. I'm going to see if I can get hold of the full text to take a read. It's just a shame little has been produced on this so far but I suppose scientific investigation would more often use MS-222 since it'd be available to the kinds of people doing those investigations. Anyway, I'm still on the search for more answers so anyone who uses/used clove oil in the past and wants to share experiences/observations re above questions much appreciated!

[Pufferpunk]

I did buy some Finquel (MS-222) & will be using that for now on. The bottle will probably last forever! I need to update the dentistry article on that.

[coldmachineUK]

I've read it expires after one week if it's in liquid form: did you get a bottle of liquid or is it available to purchase in powdered form? I'd be interested to see how you go with it, in case I can get my hands on some here. Unlikely though in the UK, I think, because it's restricted.
Also, I've read that there have been instances where fish exposed to MS-222 have gone on to die after 2 weeks of appearing to be fine: it's been a common link in each case. Could be dosage problems with whomever was dealing the anaesthetic though.
Wow, now I think on this some more it seems like this subject is really lacking any real rigorous investigation in terms of application within the hobby (most materials/papers are about larger fish like, chinook salmon, rainbow trout etc etc. -> possibly b/c MS-222 specifically is the only approved anaesthetic for fish which is consumed by people later on).

[coldmachineUK]

Digging up this thread following experiences this month. I have since lost one SAP which I am attributing to the effects of clove oil. The puffer took far longer than usual to recover on the usual dosage, exhibited lack of coordination when swimming (possibly due to blindness?). The puffer died within 24 hours.

This morning I trimmed the teeth of a different SAP, using a lower dosage of clove oil in recognition of my earlier loss. However, this fish is now also exhibiting unusual swimming behaviour, and has a clouded eye (suggests trauma? But during the trimming, recovery, and on release back in to the tank the fish did not manifest this problem - it seems to have emerged since). I am now expecting to lose my 2nd SAP in the same month...

That they've both exhibited the same signs suggests to me it's definitely the clove oil. This is now the 5th or 6th dentistry since I have had them and the procedure is quick, fine, and there's never been any problems. The time of recovery has, however, increased gradually on each occasion. To me, this suggests problems with long-term application of this method of sedation.

[StormySkiez]

Sorry to hear that UK . Sounds like clove oil is bad to use. I'm wondering how many others have used clove oil w/ their fish repeatedly with the same issues.

[Pufferpunk]

The Finquel comes in powdered form. I'm not sure how safe I feel sending it to you--don't want to get busted! I have used it sucessfully for my modestus' trimming & have no issues using it again for this.

[matt77]

I now dont use any thing on my sap when clipping there teeth, and have never had a problem. The one time i did use clove oil i had loads of hasle with it.

[Nick]

I trimmed my F8 Puffy's teeth without any anesthetic - he didn't even give me much of any trouble.

[coldmachineUK]

Did you not find them gasping or opening/closing their mouth while you were trying to trim?
There's a UK supplier of Finquel, but I'm not sure if they supply outside of the veterinary trade...I'll have to get in touch to ask.
I did lose that 2nd puffer in the end, by the way. It's been a disaster...

[Nick]

Trimmed underwater, so no gasping. Jaw motion stopped when I placed the nippers in position.