Advice on new SAP set-up gratefully received!

[RobH]

Hey Everyone,

I've just about cycled my new 4 ft tank which is running a large external filter in readiness to hopefully introduce a shoal of 6 young SAPs. I would grateful, however, for any advice and/or comments on the following points :

COMPATIBILITY WITH OTHER FISH

As well as the 6 SAPs, I would like to have 3 or 4 Clown Loach in the tank - has anyone out there successfully kept SAPs with Clown Loach?

I thought Clown Loach (CL) would be a good choice to maybe keep the bottom of the tank clean as like puffers, they are snail eaters so my logic is that they would eat any 'leftovers' from the SAPs. Also, I have been told by my lfs that CL won't eat my plants - does anyone disagree?

I was also wondering about a few oto.s (dwarf plecs) to take care of algae - again, has anyone kept oto.s with SAPs?

I know that oto.s work well with dwarf puffers but it occurs to me that they may be small enough to be eaten by SAPs?

FOOD & SNAIL-BREEDING

The staple diet of my SAPs will be snails (particularly given the beak growth on SAPs) and to this end, I have a cycled 1 ft tank with filter, airstone & light ready to breed snails in. The time has now come for me to buy my 'breeding stock' and as far as I can make out, Apple snails would appear to be the best choice as they would appear to be relatively easy to breed and won't eat my plants if they survive for a time in the puffer tank - is this the general concensus or would anyone recommend any other type of snail?

Assuming Apple snails are a good choice, does it matter which particular variety of Apple snails I buy or would it be ok to just have a general mix?

Finally, I do have a ready supply of all sizes of garden snails in my garden - I could probably pick up about 20 on any 1 night. Are garden snails a suitable food for SAPs (particularly whilst waiting for my aquatic snails to breed) or should I just stick with aquatic snails?


As I say, I would very much welcome all advice & comments - I will be posting pictures of the tank when it has been stocked.

Thanks everyone.

[WalkingTarget]

I would say that clown loaches are a no no, as they get rather large.

Otos seem to be tolerated by SAPs and Dwarfs; but the only way to be sure is to try it out. I'd reason that so long as the otos are healthy and the puffers well fed, you won't have many, if any, missing otos.

Apple snails are a poor choice. You want Ramshorn snails or common pond snails. they breed like rats and are capable of asexual reproduction.

if in doubt, go to a local fish store that sells aquarium plants and ask if you can buy some of the 'pest snails' they get on their plants. Chances are they'll be happy to fish a handfull out for you and see the back side of those snails, never mind being paid for them.

To give you an idea, i have a little 1.7 gallon hex that i started with a few snails in.

Two weeks later and i have a couple dozen. the larger, older ones are kept for breeding stock, everything else is fed to Mr. Puffer who is quite happy to have a few snails a week (gut loaded with veggies!) as opposed to one snail a week and some bloodworms.

[apachepufferman]

my saps are pretty uninterested in every other fish in the tank. So I think that you would be fine with the CL.

DO NOT feed your SAP Trumpet snails they will break there teeth. Ramshorns are good to go. I would wait on the garden snails unless you can quarentine them first.

Also I would go ahead and get some teeth trimming supplies from the start. When your puffer starts paseing up and down the glass and rubbing his nose rapidly against it thats a good sign that they need trimming. I have 5 SAPs at the moment and they all do the same thing when there teeth start bugging them.

[jimi]

could a clown loach eat a sap? they get big and rule of fish thumb is if it fits in the mouth its toast ( bad luck if you have a rtc couse that means your fist )

[cuteyiddlepuff]

I would say that clown loaches are a no no, as they get rather large.

Otos seem to be tolerated by SAPs and Dwarfs; but the only way to be sure is to try it out. I'd reason that so long as the otos are healthy and the puffers well fed, you won't have many, if any, missing otos.

Apple snails are a poor choice. You want Ramshorn snails or common pond snails. they breed like rats and are capable of asexual reproduction.

if in doubt, go to a local fish store that sells aquarium plants and ask if you can buy some of the 'pest snails' they get on their plants. Chances are they'll be happy to fish a handfull out for you and see the back side of those snails, never mind being paid for them.

To give you an idea, i have a little 1.7 gallon hex that i started with a few snails in.

Two weeks later and i have a couple dozen. the larger, older ones are kept for breeding stock, everything else is fed to Mr. Puffer who is quite happy to have a few snails a week (gut loaded with veggies!) as opposed to one snail a week and some bloodworms.

I'm curious as to how you got your snails to breed, I'm a failure. I have a 3g tank (no light) filter, java moss, and flake stock. I have no snails, I had more when I started the tank. I tried pond snails and ramshorn.

[RobH]

Ok Guys - thanks very much for taking the time to reply - much appreciated.

I bought 6 otos from a lfs this weekend and they are happily swimming round the tank. I have also ordered 30 x ramshorns from a breeder on ebay for very little money so hopefully I should have them by Tue/Wed. Last but not least, I have ordered my 6 young SAPs (apparently all between 1.5 to 2 inch) via mail order from a stockist at the other end of the country and they are due to arrive on Tue AM. Fingers crossed they will all be ok when they arrive - this certainly wasn't the way I wanted to get my SAPs but despite trying for weeks, I just haven't been able to source any locally so no choice really.

Anyway, could I just pick up a little further on a few of the points - whilst I'm waiting for the ramshorns to hopefully breed, what would be the best alternative food choice? I suspect its cockles in shells but I'm just a bit worried that the SAPs may perhaps develop a real liking for cockles and then not be interested in the snails 'when the production line gets rolling' - does this accord with anyone else's previous experience or?

Also, if my snail breeding programme doesn't work, what would be the quarantine period for garden snails (and/or are there any other risks with feeding land snails)?

Once again, thanks everyone for your help.

Rob

[apachepufferman]

I would say at least a couple weeks quarantine with the snails. I'm not sure if they would still be ok for your fish so that needs to be addressed by someone with more experience.

I feed my SAPs bloodworms. I have put in snails but i have never seen them eat them. I can't find the snails though so I'm guessing they have been dealt with. Mixing up the diet is good for healthy puffers so I wouldn't strictly feed them snails. I have to ship my saps in as well. They are tricky devils to find.

Jimi-- I have my DPs in with my comunity tank as well as my saps. I have noticed that all the fish that show aggresive tendensies leave my puffers alone. Its like there is an unwritten rule that these fish are to be messed with. My 7" eel chases everything around but a DP can sit on its head and eat from the same pile of bloodworms and the eel moves out of the DPs way. Just something that happens in my tanks. Not sure about others.

[mike_freegan]

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[cuteyiddlepuff]

You could try it but Puffers are generally fin nippers. However, some ppl have kept their SAP in a community tank w/o a problem. It all depends on the fish you get, you may get lucky. If not then you need to have an alternate plan. Although, I do think it'll be tempting for the Puffer to be housed with all these little fish that he could fit in his mouth. Keep in mind that SAPs need teeth trimming. SAPs are very likely to get Ich so when you take him home he needs to be quarantined so he won't infect your other fish. They also have a massive bioload. They love to be in the company of other SAPs. I wouldn't risk it, If there's a problem I doubt you'll be able to find another home for the SAP and it's cruel to flush him.

[mike_freegan]

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[Nick]

I have heard more than one definitive account of F8's(similar size to a SAP) getting tooth damage from MTS. Larger puffers, such as fahaka, seem to easily obliterate them... Personally, my GSPs have viciously chewed on saltwater sandsifting snails(even harder shells than MTS) without beak damage, though they couldn't break them, and often chew on live rock and other things certainly harder than a MTS when eating 'pods. A noted puffer specialist(Neale I think?), observed that his SAPs kept in a sandy substrate with MTS were the only ones that did not require beak trimming, perhaps because chewing the abrasive sand against the hard shells wore their teeth quickly enough. That's pretty much all the data on the risks posed by MTS. Most people consider them not worth the risk for smaller puffers. If I ever find any, I'll probably give my GSPs a try at them after seeing the sandsifting snail incident, but I don't ever plan on trying them on my F8's.

[cuteyiddlepuff]

Pufferpunk said every SAP she has gotten gets Ich when she brings them home from the store, their immune system doesn't handle the move well. I have two I'm treating right now, I used the salt/Melafix/airstone/raised temp treatment and it eradicated the ich quickly (usually treat for 10 days minimum). When they're back to 100% I'm putting them in a larger tank and getting a third. They love each other .

PS don't flush your fish JUST KIDDING

[mike_freegan]

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[cuteyiddlepuff]

Ich meds aren't necessary for Puffers, the salt/Melafix/high temp/airstone treatment works just fine.
library/hospital/fwich/

[Pufferpunk]

Mike, you really should have started a new thread for your SAPs. The reasoning is, here I am getting in in the thread late & want to answer both of the poster's Qs but it can get confusing in the same thread.

As to your Q: I am positive the CL will outcompete your puffers for snails. Before they hit the ground, the loaches will get the snails. They grow quite large & they are much more streamlined for swimming then the puffers.

To the OP: It is recommended 15g as a minimum tank size fo 1 SAP. Your tank is 17g, I believe? That doesn't leave much room for tankmates. A crowded puffer is definately more prone to nipping.