Sick Angels Dying

[LizB]

Ok, I lost a 2nd angel. I'm sure it died on Wed. night just like the first one because I couldn't find it yesterday even though I cleaned the tank. I finally found him this morning behind the HOB outflow.
A 3rd has all of his fins as clamped as they can get. The rams are flashing. The rams have been flashing for wks but it was never enough for me to think I really needed to treat them. I figured they were just scratching an itch. There would be days inbetween flashing but it seems to have gotten worse. One of the angels has a light gray or whitish film on the head area.

I'm thinking this is parasitic. Should I treat with parasite guard or parasite clear? I've only dealt with parasites once and it was many years ago. I used parasite guard and it was a miracle cure. Also should I use pimafix to head off anything bacterial? The temp is always 80 so I'm guessing I should raise it????

I'm removing the snail, any ghost shrimp that I can find and I want to know if I should I remove my betta girls.

Let me know if this is the right plan or if I should do something else.

Thanks

pH 8.0
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 5

I did a 75% water change yesterday. I do a 50-75% change every week.

[Nick]

The parasite clear has a very broad spectrum of effect, including anti-protozoan agents, so that might work. I haven't used the parasite guard.

[LizB]

I just started with the parasite clear. I went with my gut feeling based on what all the PC could help. I also kept thinking "what would Nick do?" I'm also hoping it will help my little skinny ram. I've treated everyone for IP's with gel-tek but that one little guy stays so skinny. He also has a bump on his nose that I wonder about.

I probably should've gone ahead and treated the tank as soon as the rams started flashing more than a few times a day even if there were breaks inbetween.

I really hope this works. I won't be surprised if I lose more angels though. I hope it doesn't hurt the rams without gill covers.

It wasn't hard to get Gary the mystery snail but I was only able to get 3 of the ghost shrimp.

Hugs, Beth

The parasite clear has a very broad spectrum of effect, including anti-protozoan agents, so that might work. I haven't used the parasite guard.

[Nick]

I hope it goes well. I don't think it will be any harder on them being without gill covers, since once dissolved into the water, it will be moving over their gills with every breath anyway. Good luck

[LizB]

I lost another angel and one of the little rams with burned gills. I really boo hooed over the ram. The thought that I will be lucky to have them even a yr sounds much worse now than when I first got them.

Two of the angels still look real well and the 3rd still has fins so clamped that they look like needles. I'm surprised he's still alive. Everyone else looks good, so far. I started the 2nd treatment with parasite clear on Sun. after doing a cleaning. I'm holding my breath on the blk angel. I want him to live so bad and he and the healthy looking silver one are big buddies. Who knows, maybe they're a pair.

The ram started rolling like a person would if they were rolling down a hill. Do you think that was swim bladder or whirling disease? I was thinking whirling since it still appears that I'm dealing with parasites.
What do you think? I always soak their flake food before they get it.

I hope it goes well. I don't think it will be any harder on them being without gill covers, since once dissolved into the water, it will be moving over their gills with every breath anyway. Good luck

[Nick]

Are you treating the water in addition to feeding treated food? If you just treat food, the fish can be recontaminated by parasites in the water over and over.

[LizB]

Yeah, I'm treating the water. Since the Parasite Clear is supposed to take care of internal and external parasites I haven't been giving them anything extra for parasites. Should I add gel-tek for IP's?

Oh, and I have been doing 1/2 dose because of the tetras. It worries me that it's not enough med for the other fish. I haven't seen any flashing today or yesterday but I did see a fish shaking it's head like you'd do if you were trying to shake something off. I've never seen a fish do that before.

Are you treating the water in addition to feeding treated food? If you just treat food, the fish can be recontaminated by parasites in the water over and over.

[Nick]

You can't do that - no half doses of parasite meds. Typically, this causes parasites to become immune to the active ingredients, and the infection may become untreatable. It will probably still be effective on external parasites at that dose, but the internal parasites which depend on a certain uptake from the water may not be entirely eliminated. In that case, any tiny remaining dregs of internal parasites will build back up over many weeks, and be resistant to any ingredient in the medication used.

[LizB]

So should I go ahead and do a full dose even though I have the tetras in there? You know the general rule about tetras being fragile to meds due to no scales. I "might" could fish them all out of the tank and just leave the fish with scales in there but it would be nice if I could just leave the tetras. I have been concerned about not using the full dose because of the reasons you say.

I guess that's a good reason not to mix scaless and fish with scales together.

I noticed the angel with clamped fins rub against a pot this morn. I'm still surprised he's alive.

You can't do that - no half doses of parasite meds. Typically, this causes parasites to become immune to the active ingredients, and the infection may become untreatable. It will probably still be effective on external parasites at that dose, but the internal parasites which depend on a certain uptake from the water may not be entirely eliminated. In that case, any tiny remaining dregs of internal parasites will build back up over many weeks, and be resistant to any ingredient in the medication used.

[Nick]

I could be wrong, but as far as I know, the only med tetras are particularly weak to is malchite green, a common ingredient in many ich treatments, which is where the whole "tetras need half doses" idea came from - basically, because it says so on the back of the package of quick cure. I can't honestly say I've treated tetras for parasites, but I somehow doubt they are more sensitive than my dwarf puffers, who I've used full doses of this medicine on fine.

[LizB]

Well, I was waiting for you to say the tetras really needed to move. Then I'd just have to go ahead and set up a tetra tank, may as well leave them in there once I've got them outta the 75. Then I'd just have no choice but to turn the 75 into a south american community once things settled down. I've already got it all worked out in my head. And then if the other SA's were too mean for my rams I'd have to set up a ram tank...ya know?

Since I've treated the 75 twice should I just go ahead and clean and then do a full dose?

I'm sorry for asking you every little thing. I'm afraid I'll mess up and kill my babies. You think of things that I don't. I don't know what I'd do without you, Stormy, Cobra and good ole Paul when he's around.
I always had tiger barbs and the buenos aries and no fish buddies to teach me more. Don't you feel sorry for me?

I could be wrong, but as far as I know, the only med tetras are particularly weak to is malchite green, a common ingredient in many ich treatments, which is where the whole "tetras need half doses" idea came from - basically, because it says so on the back of the package of quick cure. I can't honestly say I've treated tetras for parasites, but I somehow doubt they are more sensitive than my dwarf puffers, who I've used full doses of this medicine on fine.

[Nick]

awe. I would suggest treating the tank with a full dose before moving the tetras, given there is a chance they will carry the parasites to any tank they go to. I find the dose, 48 hours, 50% change, dose strategy to be best.

[StormySkiez]

I'm sorry for asking you every little thing. I'm afraid I'll mess up and kill my babies. You think of things that I don't. I don't know what I'd do without you, Stormy, Cobra and good ole Paul when he's around.
I always had tiger barbs and the buenos aries and no fish buddies to teach me more. Don't you feel sorry for me?

It's a good thing we can pick each others brains for the info we need and share information. I do feel for you Liz....I am wondering... How can you want more tanks...lol? You are a trooper I guess that is how. I can't do it. My betta, cats & dogs right now have me thinking no more fish or any other pets for a long time.....I hope .

[LizB]

Well Nick, I think this is crazy but within 2hrs of full dosing the tank the 3rd angels fins opened up. I had to look and look because I couldn't believe it would work that fast. I think he might still be acting a bit weird but he sure looks A LOT better. He is soooo pretty. So far not one tetra seems the least bit sick although I did lose another ram right before cleaning and full dosing and I keep coming up one short when counting the ones left. If I still keep coming up short tomorrow I will start searching. I swear one minute he was swimming and the next thing I know he is falling to the bottom like a crashing plane and spinning all the way down. I've never seen anything like that. It was another one with burned gills.

Why do all the meds say to half dose tetras when it doesn't hurt them? I had no idea.

I have hope now that the sick angel will recover. I think he's tough as heck to have made it this long and him feeling so bad. The other 2 angels still look perfect. I think my blk boy is going to live! I just knew that with my luck he'd die but he never looked sick. I had only saw pics of blk angels and he's the first that I ever saw at a LFS. I couldn't believe I was able to buy one. He looks so velvet and his friend is such a shiny silver with bands that only come out with excitement. The sick one is silver with rich dark bands.
I think all 3 are gorgeous.

The wheels are still turning about moving the tetras out and getting a few, not many, more SA's. Of course I'll wait a bit and make sure they're healthy although I swear you can't kill tetras with a
hammer.

Thank You Nick! You have saved my fish.

awe. I would suggest treating the tank with a full dose before moving the tetras, given there is a chance they will carry the parasites to any tank they go to. I find the dose, 48 hours, 50% change, dose strategy to be best.

[LizB]

EWWWWWWWWWW! I was just catching up on forum mail and was reading about a member treating her GSP for parasites and her talking about worms.

Tonight one of the angels looked like he was having a solid long white poo come out. I have never seen poo like that before. I wonder if it's a worm. EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!