The Mysterious Death of Buddy

[Nick]

Toss it in a friend's pond?

[StormySkiez]

Nick can the lace rock be tested?? Hmm, somewhere I read about pouring vinegar onto the rock (I think), if it fizzes it is no good??

Anyone know this trick? I'm sorry I'm very tired right now w/ 1 hr sleep and 10 hours of work...to tired to research it.

[crazedpuffer]

Yep you got it. Your put vinegar on it, and if the acid makes it dissolve it would not be good for a fish tank as it will decrease the PH.

[Nick]

Lace rock always fizzes. It's full of carbonates and is intended to buffer the water, but it's calcium carbonate, an acceptable thing to dissolve, I'm more curious if it's been contaminated with anything that might be leeching out slowly.

[FishFan]

Sorry to hear about this second loss. Terribly frustrating.

The problem you describe here sounds like it took place at the time of purchase or before and not as a result of something you did. Also, you followed widely recommended or standard procedures in every case. There is, however, one procedure you used that Anne and I feel is a potential source of the problems you are having. This view is very likely to be controversial.

When doing fishless cycling you presumably followed the recommendations in this or a similar article, library/water-filtration/fishless-cycling . Fishless cycling is certainly popular right now, and is recommended by some very knowledgeable experts. Regardless, we see the use of household or industrial cleaners in aquariums as a very risky practice. Some people may use chemical cleaners for fishless cycling successfully, but it is not guaranteed to be safe.
The manufacturer of a cleaning product doesn't guarantee a product's purity or freedom from heavy metals and other contaminates, or claim that the product is in any way food (or fish) safe. Ammonia hydroxide is very reactive and could easily be contaminated with impurities picked up from equipment or equipment cleaners during the manufacturing and packaging process. The plastic bottle the product is sold in is almost certainly not food grade plastic so plasticizers and other chemicals may leach into the contents.

Someone may say that the impurities can be removed using water changes before adding fish. Water changes won't remove chemicals that may have been absorbed by the aquarium seals, rock, gravel, or other decor. Just as the heavy metal copper used in medications can be absorbed and released later, the heavy metals and other impurities in a cleaning product can be absorbed then leach back out into the water at a later time.

Some of the other problems Anne and I see as possible have been mentioned already.

-Cobra1713 already suggested watching how the seller's stock fairs. If their available stock drops very quickly, or there are dead fish in the tank it may be that cyanide fishing or the shock of transport from the distributor to the seller caused the problem. With cyanide poisoning we've only seen vomiting if the fish eats, but they don't always vomit. The symptoms Nick gave you were accurate, but as with most diseases not every fish has all the symptoms. For example, sometimes the fish will eat each food you offer only once. After they eat they may or may not vomit depending on the severity of the poisoning. Others refuse all food. We've seen cases where the fish will eagerly eat each food offered but once and only once without vomiting. It's as if they think the food was the one that made them feel sick.

- We agree with crazedpuffer on the acid test for rock but he probably meant to say rock that fizzes with vinegar will increase pH (like limestone). Also, from what we've seen there is more than one type of rock sold as "lace rock". The lace rock at one of our LFS is volcanic in origin. If you wish to try another fish you could initially introduce the fish without rock then add the rock back after a month or two and watch the fish closely.

-To prevent the possibility of a water chemistry shock moving the fish to your tank, we use a multi-test test strip to (ball park) test the store's water for pH, salinity, Alkalinity, Total Hardness, etc. We've found many seller's tanks are loaded with nitrate and have very acid pH, as low as 5.5. We also test for copper and ammonia and we've found both in sellers' water. If you don't want to do these tests, you instead could use salt water acclimation techniques such as drip aclimation (add tank water to the bag water slowly over an hour or more).

-Robert

[genetao]

Hey everyone, sorry for the slow reply. I'm home sick with the flu. And my wife is still recovering from her foot surgery, so life has been a little difficult as of late. But my fever broke today, so that's why I'm back on the computer.

Nick, thanks for that piece of advice. I didn't realize that calcium carbonate fizzes in vinegar, but is still completely acceptable. As for it being possibly contaminated, I'll just have to test that theory with a goldfish like you suggested. For now, I'm just continuing with the fishless cycling method.

Fishfan, thank you for your most thorough explanation. You make several good points. I've never been one to try to re-invent the wheel, which is why I followed suggestions by much more knowledgeable people than myself. Figuring that many other people have successfully used the fishless cycling method, I just assumed that it would work great for me. But with all the pitalls that you mention, I think its worth some investigation. So should the lace rock. I'm planning on putting in a "guinea pig" of a fish and see how it fares. I'm hoping that the lace rock is not the cause because I have several java fern attached to the lace rock.

But I think you're onto something when you say that it was something that took place before time of purchase. I should have suspected something was awry when I saw a fresh shipment of f8s. They just came in earlier that morning, and I saw an f8 nearly dead. It was being picked on and nipped by the other puffers in the tank. I can understand if the fish had been in there for a few days, but the same day the fish were put in the tank? I guess I wasn't thinking and just justify it my mind that that fish was just weak from being shipped. But looking back on it, most of the other fish looked really banged up, and some looked pretty weak. I haven't gone back to see them, but every time I call, they say that they ran out of f8s. I just assumed that they were all sold off to loving fish owners. But what if instead of being sold, they simply died?!?!?!??? Thus no more f8s left to sell. Very interesting indeed.

Thanks for the tip about drip acclimation. I usually try to acclimate fish slowly, but not to the point of drip acclimating.

Thanks everyone for your help! I'll keep you posted.

Gene

[genetao]

P.S. I just tested the lace rock with rice vinegar. Nothing. No fizzing at all. What does that mean?

[genetao]

A QUICK UPDATE:

Today, I went to the lfs from where I purchased my last two puffers who met their untimely demise under my watch. And all of their f8s are all gone. But in that same tank, there were still a few spotted puffers left. This is only a week and a half since their last shipment of f8s. Maybe they were all purchased. Or maybe some of them died. Both Fishfan and Pufferpunk suggest that the f8s might have been ill or were cyanide caught. I'm starting to suspect that too.I know that spotted puffers were purchased from a different supplier than the f8s. The thing that makes me suspect that the f8s were sick was because there were spotted puffers in the same tank before the f8s were added, and there still are spotted puffers left, even though all the f8s are all gone. Hmmm.....

In any case, I added in a comet goldfish as a guinea pig to see how it fares in the tank. He looks really good so far. We'll see how he looks in a month.

[Happy_Puffer]

I love the tank!!!

[genetao]

Thanks Happy_puffer. It's a work in progress, as I still want to get a few more plants, namely a dwarf anubias and a watersprite.

Here's another pic I took that I was going to post on aquaticplantcentral.com. I'm having some sort of nutrient deficiency in one of my anubiases. Its strange that its happening only to one of the anubias, and not the other.

[Happy_Puffer]

I wish my tank looked like that!! How big is the tank? The only plant I have is a java fern and I really like it I was thinking about adding a moss ball or something. Right now I am on the search for a bigger tank, I have the 30 and the 14 but I really want to have another 30 and just make the 14 a qt tank for the salt water fish. Well good luck with the tank and please post some more pictures when you get your new plants! I must be crazy but I really want a bigger tank!

[jimi]

sorry for you lose maybe next time you go to get a puffer you sould look around at them maybe do a quick count and then put on on hold then og back in a week and see how there doing to decide if you want one

( ohh and happy puffer it seems you have the itch you might be hooked always wanting a bigger and biggertank ( i do to )

[Happy_Puffer]

Ya I have always been into fish tanks. My dad used to have salt water a really really long time ago, back when it was new to have salt water fish. Ever since I was little I have always had a fish tank. I used to have a 75 gallon but that was when we were really poor so that was our only enterainment! I then moved to the 30 gallon and when I put chilids in there I kinda got out of the hobby because this fish is just horrible my family calls her the beast. I can't get anymore tanks until I move out but I don't think I can afford anymore tanks. I have spent over $400 on my salt water alone so I like seeing other tanks until I can afford to start another one!!

[FishFan]

If your rock doesn't fizz with vinegar, it is not sedimentary or metamorphic rock formed from alkaline deposits such as shells and coral. If your rock passes the fizz test it will not have a tendency to dissolve and make your water alkaline. When dissolving, rock can also release any contaminates that may be contained within it, such as the chemicals, some toxic, some not, that give the rock its color. Based on what is sold as lace rock around here, there is a chance your rock is volcanic in origin. What we see sold locally is rock with many large spherical cavities resulting when lava is rapidly cooled upon spilling into water.

Passing the fizz test is not the only concern, however. Rock which has fractured and then been reformed by deposits carried into the fractured veins can also introduce contaminates. For example, the decomposed granite that is very common in this area (we live very near a volcano) often has red veins running through it caused by iron deposits. These deposits can leach out of the rock to contaminate tank water with toxic levels of iron. It is advisable to avoid rock with veins of color running through them and rock which is very soft (such as soapstone) or rock that is decomposing (very easily fractured or crumbles easily).
-Robert

[PuffnStuff]

I agree with Jimi, put the fish on hold and wait )rwally hard to do), then see if they're healthy. P.S. anubias is a great aquatic plant, I bought one plant like 6 years ago and have cuttings from that plant growing in all my tanks!