The Mysterious Death Of Kirby
Forum rules
Read this before posting!!
Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.
1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.
2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.
3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)
4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.
5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.
We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.
While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.
Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
Read this before posting!!
Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.
1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.
2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.
3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)
4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.
5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.
We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.
While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.
Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
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Pufferpunk
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T niphobles - Location (country): USA, Greenville, SC
- Location: Greenville, SC
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Re: The Mysterious Death Of Kirby
You are just the person a puffer needs to be it's caretaker. Go get another one. Be sure to keep that tank cycled with ammonia, utill you do. Get a strong swimmer...
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...
"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
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Nick
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Narrow Lined Puffer - Ulrike - Location (country): Northeastern USA
- Location: Middletown, CT
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Re: The Mysterious Death Of Kirby
It's dosing an a collection area with cyanide, which puts the fish out like carbon monoxide does a person. Only, it has the long term health problems you don't get with carbon monoxide.
No matter how magnificent your successes or devastating your failures, the worlds' approximately 5 billion impoverished people could not possibly care less.
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StormySkiez
- Fahaka Puffer
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- Location: USA~TN
Re: The Mysterious Death Of Kirby
That is really sad. Like everyone can see your little kirby looked so healthy. The fact you noticed his swimming was weak seems like something was going on. I'm sorry for your loss genetao. I believe this could happen with any type of fish you buy. Puffers have so much more personality then most fish! That is why we love them so.
Like PP said SPDS. Odd things that can not be explaned can happen with any fish. One time after feeding mussel soaked in vitamins and garlic to my puffers I watched my smaller puffer swim like crazy up and down and crash then the gsp slowed down and went to sleep (she looked way over fed). I was so scared I was going to lose her. I didn't. To this day I don't know what happened or why it happened. I believe I posted something about my bigger gsp sort of acting spastic to a Much lesser degree after eating food soaked in garlic but the conclusion was it was not the garlic that would cause that. My bigger puffer still to this day does seem to spaz a little At feeding time even before I feed him at times. All we can do is take care of them the best we can and you surely did take care of Kirby well.
Like PP said SPDS. Odd things that can not be explaned can happen with any fish. One time after feeding mussel soaked in vitamins and garlic to my puffers I watched my smaller puffer swim like crazy up and down and crash then the gsp slowed down and went to sleep (she looked way over fed). I was so scared I was going to lose her. I didn't. To this day I don't know what happened or why it happened. I believe I posted something about my bigger gsp sort of acting spastic to a Much lesser degree after eating food soaked in garlic but the conclusion was it was not the garlic that would cause that. My bigger puffer still to this day does seem to spaz a little At feeding time even before I feed him at times. All we can do is take care of them the best we can and you surely did take care of Kirby well.
55g-2 green spotted puffers 1 year old Nov 08!
20g-5 leopard danio,4 whiteskirt tetras, amanos, nerita snails, 2 neon tetras
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genetao
- Dwarf Puffer
- Posts: 63
- Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:00 pm
- Gender: Male
- My Puffers: I use to have a Figure 8 R.I.P. Kirby
Peanut Pea Puffer - Location (country): Bay Area, CA
Re: The Mysterious Death Of Kirby
Thanks for your support everyone. I really do appreciate it.
I'm still contemplating on the idea of getting another puffer because they are so dang cute, and have tons of personality. But to be rather honest, I'm sort of put off by the idea that almost all puffers (except for dp's) are wild caught. Especially with such concerns as unscrupulous methods of capture (e.g. chemical).
Something that always bothers me is that in several of the petshops and lfs I've been to, I've seen some seriously mangled puffers (torn fins, skin fungus, etc), some of which CLEARLY exhibit internal parasites because their stomachs have weird protrusions from them. Just saddens me that such smart fish have been through the thresher.
Currently, the tank is empty except for some plants I have. I've started the ammonia cycling again with Ace Hardware ammonia just to keep the nitrifying bacteria well stocked and fed.
I guess the reason its so heartbreaking is because I was looking forward to Kirby growing up with us as a pet. I hear they can live well past a decade. My wife and I live in a small apartment and have very little space. So I opted to go with a single fish as a pet. But a fish with tons of personality! (Kind of like a dog or cat) I think I wouldn't be as heart broken if I had a community tank, but then its not quite the same as having a single pet to devote my heart and attention to, you know what I mean?
If puffers were hardier, then I'd be tempted to try again. But at this point, I'm considering other options. (But then again, what am I gonna do with my snail/ghost shrimp tank????)
I'm still contemplating on the idea of getting another puffer because they are so dang cute, and have tons of personality. But to be rather honest, I'm sort of put off by the idea that almost all puffers (except for dp's) are wild caught. Especially with such concerns as unscrupulous methods of capture (e.g. chemical).
Something that always bothers me is that in several of the petshops and lfs I've been to, I've seen some seriously mangled puffers (torn fins, skin fungus, etc), some of which CLEARLY exhibit internal parasites because their stomachs have weird protrusions from them. Just saddens me that such smart fish have been through the thresher.
Currently, the tank is empty except for some plants I have. I've started the ammonia cycling again with Ace Hardware ammonia just to keep the nitrifying bacteria well stocked and fed.
I guess the reason its so heartbreaking is because I was looking forward to Kirby growing up with us as a pet. I hear they can live well past a decade. My wife and I live in a small apartment and have very little space. So I opted to go with a single fish as a pet. But a fish with tons of personality! (Kind of like a dog or cat) I think I wouldn't be as heart broken if I had a community tank, but then its not quite the same as having a single pet to devote my heart and attention to, you know what I mean?
If puffers were hardier, then I'd be tempted to try again. But at this point, I'm considering other options. (But then again, what am I gonna do with my snail/ghost shrimp tank????)
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FishFan
- Figure 8 Puffer
- Posts: 208
- Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:08 am
- My Puffers: Orbicular Burrfish (Oblio, shown in the avatar), Striped Burrfish
- Location (country): Maine USA
- Location: USA
Re: The Mysterious Death Of Kirby
Both of us feel for you and your lost fishy. 
With your description of damaged skin and weak swimming, we can't help but wonder if Kirby got squished somewhere along the way before you got him. Being squished can cause an internal injury that could take a long time to be fatal. One of the signs of cyanide poisoning is very good color, something you also described. Perhaps other injuries besides poisoning can result in enhanced color as well.
Puffers are one of the fish most often cyanide fished and is perhaps one reason for the well known sudden puffer death syndrome. Also, not all of the fish in a distributor's shipment to a LFS come from the same original source. With the high mortality rate of cyanide caught fish it is possible for a few poisoned fish to show up in an LFS's tank along side healthy fish.
Bottom line, based on your descriptions we can't see anything you used or did as the cause for your lost puffer.
R&A
With your description of damaged skin and weak swimming, we can't help but wonder if Kirby got squished somewhere along the way before you got him. Being squished can cause an internal injury that could take a long time to be fatal. One of the signs of cyanide poisoning is very good color, something you also described. Perhaps other injuries besides poisoning can result in enhanced color as well.
Puffers are one of the fish most often cyanide fished and is perhaps one reason for the well known sudden puffer death syndrome. Also, not all of the fish in a distributor's shipment to a LFS come from the same original source. With the high mortality rate of cyanide caught fish it is possible for a few poisoned fish to show up in an LFS's tank along side healthy fish.
Bottom line, based on your descriptions we can't see anything you used or did as the cause for your lost puffer.
R&A
A = Anne, R =Robert
There has to be a point.
There has to be a point.
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genetao
- Dwarf Puffer
- Posts: 63
- Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:00 pm
- Gender: Male
- My Puffers: I use to have a Figure 8 R.I.P. Kirby
Peanut Pea Puffer - Location (country): Bay Area, CA
Re: The Mysterious Death Of Kirby
Hmmm...you make a very good point Fishfan. Kirby could have been slightly squished along the way, thus incurring some sort of internal injury. I never thought of that. I just figured that Kirby was roughly handled during the capture or shipping process, and may have abraded his skin on some rock or drift wood. But that is an intriguing theory.
As for the cyanide capture theory, if you look back on the previous page, Nick has already stated that the symptoms of cyanide include: Unwilling to eat, spitting rather than swallowing, vomiting any significant quantity of food swallowed, medium-slow painful death.
But that wasn't Kirby. This guy could eat his weight in human shrimp if I allowed him to eat that much! There was also no sign or blood in his stool either (which I would imagine to be indication of internal injury). His stool always looked healthy and substantial.
As for the cyanide capture theory, if you look back on the previous page, Nick has already stated that the symptoms of cyanide include: Unwilling to eat, spitting rather than swallowing, vomiting any significant quantity of food swallowed, medium-slow painful death.
But that wasn't Kirby. This guy could eat his weight in human shrimp if I allowed him to eat that much! There was also no sign or blood in his stool either (which I would imagine to be indication of internal injury). His stool always looked healthy and substantial.
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crazedpuffer
- Former Staff Member
- Posts: 1755
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1xValentini - Location: Long Island, NY
Re: The Mysterious Death Of Kirby
I'm so sorry about your loss!
I think you should get another puffer, you seem like someone who would be able to take great care of one. Just make sure to pick the healthiest one possible and I'm sure things will work out great!
I think you should get another puffer, you seem like someone who would be able to take great care of one. Just make sure to pick the healthiest one possible and I'm sure things will work out great!
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genetao
- Dwarf Puffer
- Posts: 63
- Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:00 pm
- Gender: Male
- My Puffers: I use to have a Figure 8 R.I.P. Kirby
Peanut Pea Puffer - Location (country): Bay Area, CA
Re: The Mysterious Death Of Kirby
I've got a quick question.
Currently, I am cycling the tank again with ammonia until I get another fish. Then when the fish comes, do a 80-90% water change, and put in the fishie.
But then the thought crossed my mind that what if, on the off-chance, Kirby died of internal parasites? Supposing he did, would that then make the tank unsafe for the next fish (puffer) because there would be worms or parasites in the tank? Should I completely break down the tank again and start anew?
It's going to be a pain the the butt to have to start cycling the tank again from scratch. Because, even with old filter media, it takes me about 17-19 days to cycle the tank.
Any thoughts?
Currently, I am cycling the tank again with ammonia until I get another fish. Then when the fish comes, do a 80-90% water change, and put in the fishie.
But then the thought crossed my mind that what if, on the off-chance, Kirby died of internal parasites? Supposing he did, would that then make the tank unsafe for the next fish (puffer) because there would be worms or parasites in the tank? Should I completely break down the tank again and start anew?
It's going to be a pain the the butt to have to start cycling the tank again from scratch. Because, even with old filter media, it takes me about 17-19 days to cycle the tank.
Any thoughts?
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plurmaster
- Green Spotted Puffer
- Posts: 335
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:21 pm
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- Location: Los Angeles, California
Re: The Mysterious Death Of Kirby
You can try DP's,SAP or Irrubesco. They are very easy to take care of by my own experience beccause of have all three.
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genetao
- Dwarf Puffer
- Posts: 63
- Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:00 pm
- Gender: Male
- My Puffers: I use to have a Figure 8 R.I.P. Kirby
Peanut Pea Puffer - Location (country): Bay Area, CA
Re: The Mysterious Death Of Kirby
Thanks for your vote of confidence Crazedpuffer. I may just do that.
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genetao
- Dwarf Puffer
- Posts: 63
- Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:00 pm
- Gender: Male
- My Puffers: I use to have a Figure 8 R.I.P. Kirby
Peanut Pea Puffer - Location (country): Bay Area, CA
Re: The Mysterious Death Of Kirby
Those are good suggestions plurmaster. The fact that all three puffers you have mentioned are freshwater, makes things that much easier to manage (e.g. no salt required).
I was considering DPs, but I just want one fish as a pet, and DP's are a bit on the small side as a single pet.
The red eye of the Irrubesco freaks out my wife.
And I've never seen an SAP at any of the LFS here in San Jose, CA. Its hard enough to find a place that carries F8s, let alone healthy ones. But for GSP, you can find those just about anywhere.
So by the process of elimination, given what was available to me here in San Jose, I was given the choice of GSP or F8s. And since I don't have a tank large enough to house a GSP, nor do I want to deal with a full marine setup (e.g. protein skimmer, etc), I opted for the F8.
Because of the limited selection of puffers (or of healthy puffers), I've always been tempted to purchase from online also, but I don't like:
1. Having a fish shipped in a small bag. And what if I miss the UPS driver?!?!?!?!?!?! Heaven forbid!!!!!
2. The high cost of shipping ~$25-$35.
3. I don't get to choose my fish, and pick the healthiest looking one. Its sort of like buying groceries online. When they give you your fruit, you don't get to pick the choicest fruits, you know what I mean?
I was considering DPs, but I just want one fish as a pet, and DP's are a bit on the small side as a single pet.
The red eye of the Irrubesco freaks out my wife.
And I've never seen an SAP at any of the LFS here in San Jose, CA. Its hard enough to find a place that carries F8s, let alone healthy ones. But for GSP, you can find those just about anywhere.
So by the process of elimination, given what was available to me here in San Jose, I was given the choice of GSP or F8s. And since I don't have a tank large enough to house a GSP, nor do I want to deal with a full marine setup (e.g. protein skimmer, etc), I opted for the F8.
Because of the limited selection of puffers (or of healthy puffers), I've always been tempted to purchase from online also, but I don't like:
1. Having a fish shipped in a small bag. And what if I miss the UPS driver?!?!?!?!?!?! Heaven forbid!!!!!
2. The high cost of shipping ~$25-$35.
3. I don't get to choose my fish, and pick the healthiest looking one. Its sort of like buying groceries online. When they give you your fruit, you don't get to pick the choicest fruits, you know what I mean?
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Pufferpunk
- Queen Admin
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- My Puffers: Puffers I have kept:
T lineatus
T miurus
A modestus
T biocellatus
C valentini
C coranata
C papuan
C lorteti
DPs
suvattii
burrfish
T niphobles - Location (country): USA, Greenville, SC
- Location: Greenville, SC
- Contact:
Re: The Mysterious Death Of Kirby
IMO, your puffer did not have IPs.
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...
"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
-
plurmaster
- Green Spotted Puffer
- Posts: 335
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:21 pm
- My Puffers: 1x Fake Ceylon aka SAP=El Guapo 2x DP 2x Irrubesco
- Location: Los Angeles, California
Re: The Mysterious Death Of Kirby
Hmmmm...im going to frisco on May 23rd forgot what hotel im staying at...if you want SAP or other puffers i can deliever it to you..might just have to pick it up at my hotel. I can get irrubesco,MBU,SAP,DP's,F8,GSP..also alotta different kind of salt water too but im more into FW easier and cheaper for me to take care of.
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crazedpuffer
- Former Staff Member
- Posts: 1755
- Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 11:57 pm
- My Puffers: 1x Porcupine Puffer
1xValentini - Location: Long Island, NY
Re: The Mysterious Death Of Kirby
Just so you know, SAPs aren't as personable as most other puffs.
I wouldn't worry about IPs (which I doubt your puffer had)
If it did though and you got another incredibly healthy puffer it should be able to fight them off by itself.
I wouldn't worry about IPs (which I doubt your puffer had)
If it did though and you got another incredibly healthy puffer it should be able to fight them off by itself.
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plurmaster
- Green Spotted Puffer
- Posts: 335
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:21 pm
- My Puffers: 1x Fake Ceylon aka SAP=El Guapo 2x DP 2x Irrubesco
- Location: Los Angeles, California
Re: The Mysterious Death Of Kirby
You mean they are not ineractive Crazed?crazedpuffer wrote:Just so you know, SAPs aren't as personable as most other puffs.
I wouldn't worry about IPs (which I doubt your puffer had)
If it did though and you got another incredibly healthy puffer it should be able to fight them off by itself.