I posted this over on Chin's clownfish site but I thought I'd post here as well.
I moved the 75 this past weekend, changed it to saltwater. It also has a 20 or so gallon sump (home made out of a 29 gallon tank). The substrate and much of the base rock was brand new, but I also used quite a bit of well established live rock and there's some macro algae, etc.
Salinity is 1.024, I'll take all my tests with me tonight to verify there's no ammonia, etc (they are packed up in a box, still at my old apartment). The temp is my biggest hassle, he keeps the temp at 60 in his place and I've struggled to get it stable at 70 degrees in the tank (only had one heater handy). I'll be adding a second heater tonight to bring it up some more.
A few days after it was set up, I added my maroon clown and a few corals (shrooms, zoas). The corals are so/so.. the zoas are loving the new tank, some of the mushrooms are happy, others not so sure (too much current I think, going to move them), other things like my zenia are not coming out much at all yet.
Paris, the burrfish, is not in the tank yet. I wanted to give the clown a week to learn all the nooks and crannies and get established, and not overload the biofilter all at once. When Paris does get moved, I'll be adding another 20lbs or so of established live rock (currently in her temp tank) and the skimmer.
But the clownfish got a bit banged up in the move I think. She has some lighter colored patches on her head, and one cloudy eye. No ich, but the patches might be velvet? I'm not positive, can't find any photos yet and getting a picture of her will be a huge challenge. She's not rubbing, she's not inactive.. she's out exploring the rockwork, very active, color looks great, no gasping.. other that the patches and her eye, she looks 100% healthy.
What's my recommended treatment here, pending ammonia/nitrite/nitrate results? Melafix and watch and wait? Or should I be worrying about getting her out to a hospital tank and treating her with meds? Catching her will be a HUGE hassle, there's a lot of rock in there and I specifially set it up so she has tons of passageways to get away from Paris, I'd have to tear down the rock to get her out. But obviously, treating 90 or so gallons of water would be expensive and I don't want to add anything that might be harmful to the corals, live rock or Paris.
I'll get you guys photos of the setup, if I say so myself, it turned out awesome. Lots of rock, some fake plants, some real macro algae. I can't wait to get Paris in there. She puffed full out yesterday and I about crapped my pants, I can't believe how big she's grown! You don't realize it when you see them everyday, but the last time she puffed she was only about the size of a tennis ball, if that. This was easily larger than a softball.
anyways, any suggestions are appreciated! I'll be heading to a local store in a few hours, planning on picking up some Pimafix but if I should get something else as well, let me know!
Moved the 75, clown not well
Forum rules
Read this before posting!!
Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.
1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.
2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.
3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)
4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.
5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.
We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.
While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.
Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
Read this before posting!!
Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.
1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.
2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.
3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)
4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.
5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.
We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.
While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.
Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
-
Myaj
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Re: Moved the 75, clown not well
Looking at some photos of velvet, I don't think that's what she has. I'll try to get some photos tonight or tomorrow, but I'm thinking they just might be scrapes or something...
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Nick
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Re: Moved the 75, clown not well
I was doing some research recently, and apparently the antiparasitic flubendiazole is also a powerful killer of protazoans, and I know of one fish keeper who seemed to have successfully eliminated velvet with it. If it really is effective, that could make treatment much more puffer safe.
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FishFan
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Re: Moved the 75, clown not well
Myaj, please accept our apology in advance. The following is probably far more information than you wanted, and you probably already know most or all of it already. It's always hard to write offering advice to people who are more experienced and knowledgeable than we are. 
In a thread on a ruptured puffer at http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic25246-10-1.aspx Puffer Queen identifies some light patches on a puffer as likely Brooklynella (AKA Clownfish Disease). You may want to take a look at the photo in this thread to see if your fish's patches look similar to those on your clown fish. We've seen fish with thick slimy white patches on all or part of their bodies in our LFSs, you probably have seen this too. If the problem is brooklynella, you'll need to act very quickly because, as you are probably aware, this disease is known for killing fish by suffocation in as little as 2-3 days. Therefore, we'll over communicate in describing what we would do. This might help you decide quickly what option is best for your situation and based on your own extensive experience.
The Brooklynella treatments we've seen advocated are copper (sometimes successful), fresh water dips (One
of the diseases requiring a shorter dip time of only 2-3 minuites(*), malachite green, and formalin dips (*,**,***)
Copper: We've had good success treating a porcupine puffer, purple tang and a grouper for ich using Cupramine (per package instructions). Copper sulfate, citrate, chelated (coppersafe) or -amined (Cupramine) wouldn't be our first choice for Brooklynella because our research indicated that it is only "sometimes" successful. Copper might be a good short term treatment if you need time to obtain a better medication and have it on hand.
Formalin dips: In our experience formalin dips rarely harm fish and cause much less stress than fresh water dips. The old school of thought with formalin treatment was as a leave in treatment (bath), typically at 25ppm (1 ml standard 37%-40% formalin per 10 gallons of water). Research at UGA by Dr. John Gratzke found that if formalin is going to be successful it will have killed all the pathogens it is going to kill within 2 hours. Hence, formalin dips are preferred and are definitely less stress on the fish than the old leave-in bath method. As a dip you can use 25ppm (The bath rate) for sensitive fish (fry, very weak fish, goldfish, some tangs) and other fish use 50ppm (2ml/10 gallon or twice the leave-in bath rate). The dip water should be matched to the tank water in temperature, pH, and composition, which is best done by using tank water for the dip, unless the tank water is high in ammonia or otherwise poor quality.
When we've treated any fish (salt or fresh) with formalin dips, if the treatments are going to work we've seen improvement within 3-12 hours of the dip. If the bath is successful treating sliminess problems (costia, chilodenlla, monogenic fukes, or trichodina in fresh water, or in marine systems brooklynella, Benedina (flukes) or certain turbellarian flatworms it will need to be repeated. A schedule that one source recommends is to treat 4 times on days 1,2,3,and 5(***) . Formalin displaces oxygen in water at the rate of 1ppm for every 5ppm formalin. It is therefore very important to provide strong aeration in the dip water.
We use a standard 37% formalin with a methanol stabilizer (prevents crystallizing) purchased from our local pharmacy ($12.00 for 500ml) because the formalin sold for use with fish has almost invariably developed white paraformaldehyde crystals. The crystals, which tend to develop when the product is old or has been stored below 50F are extremely toxic to fish. Never use crystallized formalin!
Kordon makes a 3% formalin solution which is unlikely to crystalize and includes instructions on how to use the product as a dip.
Formalin kills filter bacteria and inverts so dips should be done in a separate tank of 5-10 gallons or so.
Malachite green: malachite green can be used to treat brooklynella(*,***). We don't like to use malachite Green alone because it stains everything and works better in combination with formalin. A product we've used many times with great success on fish other than puffers is Quick Cure, which contains both formalin and malachite green. The combination of medication is more effective than formalin or malachite green alone and seems to work very quickly. We've never used Quick Cure ias a dip, but it is likely it could be done. Both ingredients in malachite green kill filter bacteria in both fresh and salt water and will kill inverts. Treatment should be done in a QT.
Fresh water dips: are often recommended, but we hate to use them because they seem to stress the fish far more than formalin dips. For brooklynella a shortish dip time of 2-3 minutes is all that is needed(*). To reduce stress, fresh water dips should be done with water that is pH matched and temperature matched. Matching the pH should be done using buffers sold for use with fish. We have not confirmed it, but we've heard that baking soda combines with ammonia to form toxic compounds so it should only be used with short dips, larger fresh water volumes, and ammonia free water. One method for fresh water dips that helps reduce stress considerably is to do the dip inside a plastic bag that is kept in the fish's tank during the entire dip.
* Andrews, Excell, , Carrington _Manual of Fish Health_, 2003
** Doc Johnson koivet.com
http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/art ... e=Diseases
http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/art ... edications
Online document no longer published _(Formalin Use in Koi Ponds_
*** RM Fenner in _The Conscientious Marine Aquarist_ , 1998
In a thread on a ruptured puffer at http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic25246-10-1.aspx Puffer Queen identifies some light patches on a puffer as likely Brooklynella (AKA Clownfish Disease). You may want to take a look at the photo in this thread to see if your fish's patches look similar to those on your clown fish. We've seen fish with thick slimy white patches on all or part of their bodies in our LFSs, you probably have seen this too. If the problem is brooklynella, you'll need to act very quickly because, as you are probably aware, this disease is known for killing fish by suffocation in as little as 2-3 days. Therefore, we'll over communicate in describing what we would do. This might help you decide quickly what option is best for your situation and based on your own extensive experience.
The Brooklynella treatments we've seen advocated are copper (sometimes successful), fresh water dips (One
of the diseases requiring a shorter dip time of only 2-3 minuites(*), malachite green, and formalin dips (*,**,***)
Copper: We've had good success treating a porcupine puffer, purple tang and a grouper for ich using Cupramine (per package instructions). Copper sulfate, citrate, chelated (coppersafe) or -amined (Cupramine) wouldn't be our first choice for Brooklynella because our research indicated that it is only "sometimes" successful. Copper might be a good short term treatment if you need time to obtain a better medication and have it on hand.
Formalin dips: In our experience formalin dips rarely harm fish and cause much less stress than fresh water dips. The old school of thought with formalin treatment was as a leave in treatment (bath), typically at 25ppm (1 ml standard 37%-40% formalin per 10 gallons of water). Research at UGA by Dr. John Gratzke found that if formalin is going to be successful it will have killed all the pathogens it is going to kill within 2 hours. Hence, formalin dips are preferred and are definitely less stress on the fish than the old leave-in bath method. As a dip you can use 25ppm (The bath rate) for sensitive fish (fry, very weak fish, goldfish, some tangs) and other fish use 50ppm (2ml/10 gallon or twice the leave-in bath rate). The dip water should be matched to the tank water in temperature, pH, and composition, which is best done by using tank water for the dip, unless the tank water is high in ammonia or otherwise poor quality.
When we've treated any fish (salt or fresh) with formalin dips, if the treatments are going to work we've seen improvement within 3-12 hours of the dip. If the bath is successful treating sliminess problems (costia, chilodenlla, monogenic fukes, or trichodina in fresh water, or in marine systems brooklynella, Benedina (flukes) or certain turbellarian flatworms it will need to be repeated. A schedule that one source recommends is to treat 4 times on days 1,2,3,and 5(***) . Formalin displaces oxygen in water at the rate of 1ppm for every 5ppm formalin. It is therefore very important to provide strong aeration in the dip water.
We use a standard 37% formalin with a methanol stabilizer (prevents crystallizing) purchased from our local pharmacy ($12.00 for 500ml) because the formalin sold for use with fish has almost invariably developed white paraformaldehyde crystals. The crystals, which tend to develop when the product is old or has been stored below 50F are extremely toxic to fish. Never use crystallized formalin!
Kordon makes a 3% formalin solution which is unlikely to crystalize and includes instructions on how to use the product as a dip.
Formalin kills filter bacteria and inverts so dips should be done in a separate tank of 5-10 gallons or so.
Malachite green: malachite green can be used to treat brooklynella(*,***). We don't like to use malachite Green alone because it stains everything and works better in combination with formalin. A product we've used many times with great success on fish other than puffers is Quick Cure, which contains both formalin and malachite green. The combination of medication is more effective than formalin or malachite green alone and seems to work very quickly. We've never used Quick Cure ias a dip, but it is likely it could be done. Both ingredients in malachite green kill filter bacteria in both fresh and salt water and will kill inverts. Treatment should be done in a QT.
Fresh water dips: are often recommended, but we hate to use them because they seem to stress the fish far more than formalin dips. For brooklynella a shortish dip time of 2-3 minutes is all that is needed(*). To reduce stress, fresh water dips should be done with water that is pH matched and temperature matched. Matching the pH should be done using buffers sold for use with fish. We have not confirmed it, but we've heard that baking soda combines with ammonia to form toxic compounds so it should only be used with short dips, larger fresh water volumes, and ammonia free water. One method for fresh water dips that helps reduce stress considerably is to do the dip inside a plastic bag that is kept in the fish's tank during the entire dip.
* Andrews, Excell, , Carrington _Manual of Fish Health_, 2003
** Doc Johnson koivet.com
http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/art ... e=Diseases
http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/art ... edications
Online document no longer published _(Formalin Use in Koi Ponds_
*** RM Fenner in _The Conscientious Marine Aquarist_ , 1998
A = Anne, R =Robert
There has to be a point.
There has to be a point.
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yunachin
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Re: Moved the 75, clown not well
If your Maroon has a slothing of it's skin, extra mucus, and hangs out at the top of the water breathing rapidly then that would be Brooklynellosis. The problem with it is that it has a high mortality rate and once infected can pass onto other fish like tangs and so. The one cloudy eye sounds like an injury not an infection, as if it was something bacterial it would be in both eyes. How did she travel? IE: With rocks, etc?
E.Ridgeway
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Myaj
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Re: Moved the 75, clown not well
Well, sorry it took me so long to get back online guys.
The good news is, Pimafix and Melafix have cleared up the cloudy eye and most of the "patches", which I think were just scrapes of some sort.
I moved her in a bag with water and nothing else, but she may have been bounced around or maybe even bumped her head a few times exploring the rockwork in the new tank.
But there's only one small "patch" on her head left, and its smaller every time I see it. There was never really any slimy-ness, or sloughing of skin, just sort of a discoloration. I honestly think she managed to "skin" herself, poking around the rockwork or something along those lines.
Thanks for all the info, I'm really glad I didn't need to use it!
The good news is, Pimafix and Melafix have cleared up the cloudy eye and most of the "patches", which I think were just scrapes of some sort.
I moved her in a bag with water and nothing else, but she may have been bounced around or maybe even bumped her head a few times exploring the rockwork in the new tank.
But there's only one small "patch" on her head left, and its smaller every time I see it. There was never really any slimy-ness, or sloughing of skin, just sort of a discoloration. I honestly think she managed to "skin" herself, poking around the rockwork or something along those lines.
Thanks for all the info, I'm really glad I didn't need to use it!
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yunachin
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2x Takifugu Ocellatus
9x Tetraodon biocellatus
1x Canthigaster solandri
1x Diodon Holocanthus
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1x Tetraodon miurus
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Myaj
- Tech Team
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Re: Moved the 75, clown not well
Today she is 100% healed up and being a brat and a half. I've never seen her out swimming in the open like she is in the larger tank. Its just facinating!
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yunachin
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2x Takifugu Ocellatus
9x Tetraodon biocellatus
1x Canthigaster solandri
1x Diodon Holocanthus
2x A. nigropunctatus
1x Tetraodon miurus
1x Irrubesco - Location (country): USA
- Location: SC
