New to GSP's and correcting misinformation.

HillbillyHvn · Post by **HillbillyHvn** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:47 am

Here's my story and what I'm doing... any suggestion would be most appreciated.

My story:

So my daughter comes home four weeks ago, lugging an empty ten gallon aquarium and a tupperware bowl with this fish in it. She's 17 and her boyfriend gave her this fish. So we set the tank up as freshwater tank ( I had no idea!). My dear daughter said mom I want to get him a friend and she does. One is approx 1.5 in and the other is 2.0 in approx. So I find myself with a ten gallon fw tank and 2 fish. the boyfriend had been feeding them flake food so that's what we did. The LFS at the mall told me about them needing brackish water so I started upping the salinity using 2.5 tbs of aquarium salt per gallon of water per water change(I've been doing a 10-15% water change every other day as the tank was cycling) per LFS instructions. They are currently at a sg of 1.010 LFS said the flakes we were fine but suggested adding some frozen bloodworms once a week. I decided to get online and read up on these guys. I didn't know what kind of fish they were and after exhausting myself I finally found out they were GSP's. So I started reading. Boy I about passed out from shock at what we were inadvertantly doing to these poor fish. Poor fish.

The water quality is good Am-0 Ni-0 Na- <10 Ph- 7.8 sg 1.010 per testing sample done at another fish store. I'm going to continue with the small water changes every other day until they can be moved to another tank.

So this morning I ordered a canister filter for an empty 55 gallon tank I have... and as soon as it gets here I'll be setting it up. I still need to get a heater for the big tank too. I have questions though:

I've been using aquarium salt.... reading says use marine salt such as instant ocean. Not a problem... but do I need acclimate the fish to the marine salt? If so how? Why is marine salt better? I figure in such a big tank using marine would be easier than buying 100 small boxes of aquarium salt.

What would be the best way to transition the fish to the bigger tank? Should I let it cycle first? Or seed it with their current tank materials? Also.. will the bacteria from the aquarium salt tank be different from the bacteria in marine salt tank?

So far these little guys are holding out... they look good and are eating well. (Oh I ditched the flakes.. they are eating some snails I got for free at LFS, frozen shrimp and bloodworms) I just need them to hang tight while I get this other tank set up for them.

Any suggestions?

crazedpuffer · Post by **crazedpuffer** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:40 am

Is that the LFS you got closed down?
I'd invest in a test kit and hydrometer if I was you, I think the fish store may have lied, especially about the sg.
Marine salt is much much much cheaper, and it contains a whole lot of extra minerals that help thefish survive. Aquarium salt is only used for treatment of ich.
I'd put the fish in there and seed it with everything you already have, make sure to not take the puffers out of the water or they could die.
I'd buy a hydrometer and test your current sg yourself of your tank, for it to be 1.010 you must have went through quite a bit of aquarium salt, and whatever your sg is in the 10 gallon match it with the 55.

Umbrella · Post by **Umbrella** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:50 am

WOW. lol. They really got you messed up there eh?

2 GSP's will need way more room than 10G. They usually will not eat flakes, unless thats all there is of course. They prefer live/frozen worms (blood + black), small snails, small crabs, ghost and brine shrimps. Usually they leave crayfish alone until they are a little bigger. Now as far as the FW/BW goes... they can be fine in FW for a short while but eventually they will need Brackish.

Aquarium salt is not the right stuff. It does help restore Electrolytes and healing but you would need marine salt for them. I would say if you have them in FW and the store did too, then you need to raise the salinity a little bit each week. Transition too fast and you might shock/kill them.

'What would be the best way to transition the fish to the bigger tank? Should I let it cycle first? Or seed it with their current tank materials? Also.. will the bacteria from the aquarium salt tank be different from the bacteria in marine salt tank?'

That is more of a Pufferpunk question. >.<

One question for you though.. Can you post a pic of them ? I want to see what they look like. I have a theory but I don't want to go nuts with it just yet, lol. So basically its like this. I have a couple different GSP's here in my tanks. 3 of them have changed/can change the color of their bellies to black. The other 4 GSP's and my F-8's have never changed their bellies color. They are always white. I am not even sure if these ones I have here can even change the color of their belly. I know it can't be an age thing either because I have 2 babies and one adult capable of changing belly color, but the others who are aged in between have never.

-UMB

mikeosoft · Post by **mikeosoft** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:56 am

I'm glad to hear you've done some research and you are now on the right track. Also, you've come to the right place for advice.

Aquarium salt is more for African cichlids which come from an environment where the water is very hard. Because of this, I believe Epsom salt or magnesium sulfate is the main ingredient in aquarium salt (someone will correct me if I’m wrong). Aquarium salt also lacks the basic minerals that are found in ocean salt (as well in salt and brackish waters). Ocean salt is mostly sodium chloride, but as stated previously, it is also formulated to contain the same minerals that are found in the ocean. Since brackish waters are formed where fresh water sources come in contact with the ocean, you can see why ocean salt is best to use.

As for acclimation, I would do it with your water changes. Just start using ocean salt every time you change the water. The salinity of 1.010 is a good target for the fish while they're still young. As they grow, you should gradually increase it to near marine salinity. This can be measured with a cheap hydrometer that you can find at any LFS or with a refractometer (more accurate but more expensive).

To start the bigger tank you definitely want to cycle it first. You could do a fishless cycle by adding ammonia and letting the bacteria develop on their own, or you can use a product called bio-spira. Bio-spira is the only packaged bacteria that works (it's actually alive), all the other brands are junk. It's basically sold as an instant cycle that you add with the fish. Either way, make sure you monitor the water parameters for a couple weeks when you add the fish. Puffers are extremely sensitive to toxins because they do not have scales.

There are a lot of good articles on puffer care in the library if you haven’t already found them.

HillbillyHvn · Post by **HillbillyHvn** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:05 pm

flamesofifreet wrote:Is that the LFS you got closed down?
I'd invest in a test kit and hydrometer if I was you, I think the fish store may have lied, especially about the sg.
Marine salt is much much much cheaper, and it contains a whole lot of extra minerals that help thefish survive. Aquarium salt is only used for treatment of ich.
I'd put the fish in there and seed it with everything you already have, make sure to not take the puffers out of the water or they could die.
I'd buy a hydrometer and test your current sg yourself of your tank, for it to be 1.010 you must have went through quite a bit of aquarium salt, and whatever your sg is in the 10 gallon match it with the 55.

Nope... totally different store. I did go through a TON of aquarium salt! On my fifth or sixth box now. I will pick both up tomorrow for sure. I have a freshwater kit that I use for my labs... but I don't think it will work accurately with the salt mix.

Will moving them from aquarium salt water to marine salt water affect them at all?

Umbrella wrote:WOW. lol. They really got you messed up there eh?

Now as far as the FW/BW goes... they can be fine in FW for a short while but eventually they will need Brackish.

Aquarium salt is not the right stuff. It does help restore Electrolytes and healing but you would need marine salt for them. I would say if you have them in FW and the store did too, then you need to raise the salinity a little bit each week. Transition too fast and you might shock/kill them.

One question for you though.. Can you post a pic of them ?
-UMB

OH yes.. way messed up. I've thought about grounding my daughter for even bringing the first one home! LOL (j/k)
I did the slow transition from FW to BW a supposed sg of 1.010 since I can't test it myself yet and am relying on Mr. D for test results.

I can try. My lighting is not real good and my phone doesn't take GREAT pics... but it will give you an idea of the set up we have and what they look like. Their coloring is bright. The smaller ones spots are smaller and has more color.. where as the bigger one has bigger spots and less coloring. Both have bright white full bellys. They love the little snails I got for them. Too bad they can't eat the same one I feed the cichlids.

Thx so much! Jen

Umbrella · Post by **Umbrella** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:16 pm

OH yes.. way messed up. I've thought about grounding my daughter for even bringing the first one home! LOL (j/k)
I did the slow transition from FW to BW a supposed sg of 1.010 since I can't test it myself yet and am relying on Mr. D for test results.

Haha, oh noes ! I hope Mr. D gets on the ball !

I think you have the same type of GSP I do. The ones who don't change belly color. But I will wait to see if you can get any pics. If you can't thats cool, I have pics of mine and you can just point out which one(s) yours look like. I'm not saying that there ARE definitely 2 kinds of GSP.. thats just kinda the only way I could word it. Just so no one gets confused.. there is only 1 kind of GSP that we know of at the moment. That is T. Nigroviridis.

If you do have the kind I do, my guess is that they should be just fine. Even though their water was a little messed. So if you follow what the others are saying about the SG and such, everything should be peachy. Haha, just don't let her get any more !

-UMB

Post by **Pufferpunk** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:19 pm

It would be better to cycle a 55g tank with them in it, than a 10g. If you can find Bio-Spira for the 55g, it will be fully cycled. DO NOT LET THE STORES TALK YOU INTO ANY OTHER PRODUCT! B-S is the ONLY product that contains LIVE bacteria for cycling. Changing over from Aq salt to marine salt is fine. Still has the same sodium just lots of added minerals. I'd get them back into a lower SG, if you're going to use the B-S or it won't work as well. Read the GSP article in our Library & also the feeding articles.

HillbillyHvn · Post by **HillbillyHvn** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:39 pm

What sg do I need to target for the bio spira to work?

crazedpuffer · Post by **crazedpuffer** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:41 pm

FW Bio Spira will work from 1.000-1.010 but the closer to one the better. I think 1.004 should be ideal.

Agnate · Post by **Agnate** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:41 pm

You can cycle a tank (without fish in it) pretty quickly with pure ammonia, can you not? I believe it takes several days (up to a week), but I imagine if you're doing water changes each day, they should be okay in a 10g until the 55g is set up.

Here's a link to a guide on my local city's forum about fishless cycling.
http://ovas.ca/index.php?page=40

By the sounds of the explanation, it shouldn't take more than a week (assuming you follow the guide accurately) to cycle the tank. Bringing the ammonia up to 4-6 ppm may seem pretty high, but after the puffers are put into the tank, any unneeded bacteria will die off, and you'll be left with a stable culture of bacteria. You can pick up BioSpira if you wish, but from what I've heard, it's pretty expensive.

Also, make sure the place REFRIGERATES the BioSpira. Some LFSs forget this part, and the lack of refrigeration causes the live bacteria to die, and thus makes the product useless (as far as I've heard, at least).

HillbillyHvn · Post by **HillbillyHvn** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:02 pm

Okay the phone sucks at getting moving pics... but it'll have to do for now. Does this help, Umb?

HillbillyHvn · Post by **HillbillyHvn** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:06 pm

Agnate wrote:You can cycle a tank (without fish in it) pretty quickly with pure ammonia, can you not? I believe it takes several days (up to a week), but I imagine if you're doing water changes each day, they should be okay in a 10g until the 55g is set up.

Here's a link to a guide on my local city's forum about fishless cycling.
http://ovas.ca/index.php?page=40

By the sounds of the explanation, it shouldn't take more than a week (assuming you follow the guide accurately) to cycle the tank. Bringing the ammonia up to 4-6 ppm may seem pretty high, but after the puffers are put into the tank, any unneeded bacteria will die off, and you'll be left with a stable culture of bacteria. You can pick up BioSpira if you wish, but from what I've heard, it's pretty expensive.

Also, make sure the place REFRIGERATES the BioSpira. Some LFSs forget this part, and the lack of refrigeration causes the live bacteria to die, and thus makes the product useless (as far as I've heard, at least).

I did a fishless cycle with the labs and that took about a week to ten days. I can up my water changes to every day if that will buy me some time to get this 55 set up properly for them. Thanks for the link... one can never have too much info

I just need to decide which route I want to go. I'll ask Mr. D if he carries the bio spira and price it.

Thanks so much!
Jen

Umbrella · Post by **Umbrella** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:27 pm

Yep. They are kinda blurry but they appear to look like the ones I described to you. Which simply means this: I have had mine in FW and they are slowly working their way up. They are just peachy and they are quite nice to each other. So all I can think of is... either there are 2 kinds OR salt somehow modifies their ability to color change. Beats me lol.

Look here:

#1
This one is a baby rescued from walmart. He CAN change his belly black, I have seen him do it.

#2
This guy came from Captain Nemo's Aquarium Superstore near Phila PA (Formerly Big Al's - they have a 2 headed turtle lol)
I believe we came to the conclusion that this guy is a GSP, not a Sabahensis. That or they can cross breed and hes both.
I have also witnessed them changing their bellies to black.

#3 ( same puffer as pic #2 )

#4
Finally, #'s 4 + 5 are what the 4 NON-belly changers look like. I have had them for roughly 9 months and never once have they gone black belly or even close. Just pure white shining bellies. Also, on these you can very clearly see little spines it looks like ( as you can see in the photo maybe ). #'s 1, 2 and 3 all do not appear to have these. #'s 4 and 5 do.

#5
This is a shot of my GSP who likes to beat everyone to the food. Gorges himself.

Then this is just a shot of one Sabahensis.. just so you can see what they look like if you have not seen one. Cause the store sold me 3 large puffers as 'Giant Green Spotted Puffers'.....

Hope it helps

crazedpuffer · Post by **crazedpuffer** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:37 pm

Umbrella wrote:Yep. They are kinda blurry but they appear to look like the ones I described to you. Which simply means this: I have had mine in FW and they are slowly working their way up. They are just peachy and they are quite nice to each other. So all I can think of is... either there are 2 kinds OR salt somehow modifies their ability to color change. Beats me lol.

It could also have to do with the area they are found in. It's most likely just an adaptation used to help avoid danger or alert others.

HillbillyHvn · Post by **HillbillyHvn** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:46 pm

Wow Umb... great pics! My two look like #1, #4 and #5. But I haven't seen mine change their belly color to black. Hmmm.. I thought the black bellies meant they were starving? Maybe I misread something... I could be wrong since my brain is still swirling with new info. Good looking fishies

Mine have the pure white shining bellies too. Though yours seem rounder than mine. Maybe I'm not feeding enough? Typically .. again.. going by what Mr. D recommended I've been feeding bloodworms and now snails yesterday. Between the two, I'm feeding a thawed cube per day. Is that sufficient? At what size are they capable of taking on some ghost shrimp? I've got an old beta tank that I'm setting up today to house/hopefully breed their snails and house the ghost shrimp for feeding. I can't do daily trips to lfs for these freebie snails. Mr. D might get irritated at that.. LOL

How big is that Sab?

The Puffer Forum

The Puffer Store

New to GSP's and correcting misinformation.

New to GSP's and correcting misinformation.

Re: New to GSP's and correcting misinformation.

Re: New to GSP's and correcting misinformation.

Re: New to GSP's and correcting misinformation.

Re: New to GSP's and correcting misinformation.

Re: New to GSP's and correcting misinformation.

Re: New to GSP's and correcting misinformation.

Re: New to GSP's and correcting misinformation.

Re: New to GSP's and correcting misinformation.

Re: New to GSP's and correcting misinformation.

Re: New to GSP's and correcting misinformation.

Re: New to GSP's and correcting misinformation.

Re: New to GSP's and correcting misinformation.

Re: New to GSP's and correcting misinformation.

Re: New to GSP's and correcting misinformation.