Sick F8, need help diagnosing (with pics)

[yunachin]

I would try to save them until the very end. You never know what could happen. I am sorry about this situation. IMO I would suggest that your wife get more educated about fish before attempting to start another tank. There are great articles and information here on the site to help her. Alas, lack of knowledge is the cause for many premature fish deaths.
Good Luck with the tank. I hope everything is ok.

[Pufferpunk]

Oh WOW, now that I see those pics, it really is bad! Poor puffers. How are the DPs doing? I'd add 3tbsp table salt to that tank, raise the temp to 85, add an airstone & start doing 80% daily WC, cleaning the substrate well. I'm glad you found us.

[silver2003tl]

I was wrong about the F8. According to the wife he sits like that when he's hungry. They all ate and are still all swimming around. If I add salt wouln't that stress the DP's? Is there a salinity I should shoot for? We have a refractometer, instant ocean, and some "aquarium" salt. Do I still want to use table salt?

[Pufferpunk]

Table salt in that concentration, is only for medicinal purposes--aquarium salt is fine too. Are you going to purchase a tank for those F8s? Like yesterday?

[silver2003tl]

ok I did the salt w/ IO. Were at 1.003. Will have to buy a heater, thermometer, and air pump today to do 1/2 the thing you mentioned. She's got the temp to probably house temperature around 69-71 so that's probably stressing them also. Another aquarium we really don't have space for in the house so we'll have to discuss. For these puffers is it territory or water quality for the size requirements?

80% wc daily? Am I going to see some spike w/ the meds if I don't? What parameter can I watch for? They seem to be all in check, we'll 2 days ago that is.... but I don't have pH test kit.

[yunachin]

No offense, but if you don't get those fish into a larger tank they are going to die. There are way too many fish in the tank for them to be able to function. There is no room for territories and WAY too much waste being produced. So all in all everything will be done in vain.
Can a LFS take some of the fish?

[crazedpuffer]

The size tanks needed are enough to cover territory and wastes. Also 69-71 is way too cold.

[Pufferpunk]

These are TROPICAL fish, not coldwater fish. Tropical means 78-82 degrees at all times. Otherwise, you are dealing with compromised immune systems & sick fish. Imagine if you had to live in Alaska with no coat all the time--you'd get sick! To combat the parasites on them, you need to raise the temp to 86 degrees, add 3 tbsp of plain salt (table or aquarium salt, no matter), do huge (80%) daily water changes to suck out the free-swimming parasites, while doing a thorough substrate cleaning & add Melafix to help heal the skin, where the parasite has been attacking it. We never said to use marine salt or that much. That amount will kill the dwarf puffers. Raising the SG faster than .002/week, will kill off any benefitial bacteria you have in that tank & then everyone is pretty much dead in there, because it is already grossly overstocked.

You need 2 tanks because:
1) You have to dilute the waste,
2) They are aggressive species that need their territories,
3) They require very different environments.

[CoreyK]

Just to clarify all previous comments: If you don't separate the Figure 8's and DP's, they will all die.
One species requires salt (Figure 8's), and salt will kill the other species (Dwarfs). Without proper salinity, they will constantly be sick/dying.
On top of that, the tank currently has too much bioload to ever be stable because there is too many fish in it, and is so overcrowded that it will likely stunt the Fig. 8's (if they all don't kill eachother first).

Imagine being stuck in a bathroom with 4 other people where the toilet is plugged, the air is recirculated, two of the other people have the flu, there is not enough oxygen, and toxic chemicals are being constantly released into the air.
That's pretty much what your wife's fish are living in.

[Pufferpunk]

Great analogy, except you forgot it's winter & there is no heat in there.

[silver2003tl]

Our LFS said DP are brackish way back when we bought them. They are even in the brackish section of the store (aquarium adventure, schaumburg, il). I called them today and the guy was a little more knowledgeable and said they were FW but can be acclimated to BW. Anyhow thats how we got here. And they really don't quiz the customers to ensure they have a proper home. If we really want to make a difference, we need to beat on the sales force and have them ask a few questions before making a sale. But from my exp they don't give a damn and will sell you just about anything.

Pufferpunk, I think you might have missed it but early in the thread I mentioned my salinity was 1.002 (i was really 1.0025). After the 3 tablespoons I'm at 1.003. I didn't think IO would be a big deal, I figured better quality control and extra minerals.

BTW, she is approved for a larger tank but doesn't sound interested. We have to find something that "fits" (aesthetically) the room.

[Nick]

I don't think the treatments you bought are helpful or necessary for the treatment of ich, so I wouldn't bother adding them and would return them to get your money back, unless you like to have antibiotics and other such treatments on hand.

[Pufferpunk]

Thanks for the clarification. The salt you are using will help the F8 puffers strengthen their immune system but will do the opposite for the DPs. I live in Chgo & will have to call them tomorrow & give them a piece of my mind! How do they look now?

[beachbum]

Our LFS said DP are brackish way back when we bought them. They are even in the brackish section of the store (aquarium adventure, schaumburg, il). I called them today and the guy was a little more knowledgeable and said they were FW but can be acclimated to BW. Anyhow thats how we got here. And they really don't quiz the customers to ensure they have a proper home. If we really want to make a difference, we need to beat on the sales force and have them ask a few questions before making a sale. But from my exp they don't give a damn and will sell you just about anything.

Pufferpunk, I think you might have missed it but early in the thread I mentioned my salinity was 1.002 (i was really 1.0025). After the 3 tablespoons I'm at 1.003. I didn't think IO would be a big deal, I figured better quality control and extra minerals.

BTW, she is approved for a larger tank but doesn't sound interested. We have to find something that "fits" (aesthetically) the room.

I have had this arguement a few times in the past as I have been told there is no such thing as a "TRUE FW" puffer. However, many knowledgable people on here say different. For instance, pufferpunk having experience of DP's dying in brackish environments. I have realized a while ago that most people at the LFS aren't always the ones to ask questions too. lol

Although I have to say, you keep saying they have a "brackish" section and whether that means anything at all, it's more than most places have for brackish fish. hah

[CoreyK]

I have had this arguement a few times in the past as I have been told there is no such thing as a "TRUE FW" puffer.

There are most definitely "true freshwater" puffers. They almost certainly evolved from marine ancestors, as did almost all freshwater/terrestrial organisms, but that doesn't mean that the extant species will tolerate salt in the least.

On the other hand, due to the nature of the environment, there is no such thing as a "true brackish" puffer; they are all marine/brackish, freshwater/brackish, or freshwater/marine (though they may do better in captivity when kept in a certain environment, ie. Figure 8's).