Sick F8, need help diagnosing (with pics)

[silver2003tl]

My wife loves puffers but isn't the greatest caregiver. She has 3 dwarfs and 2 figure eights and a bunch of plants in a 16gal tank. I know the dwarfs are freshwater and the f8 are brackish. She just slapps some aquarium salt in but I do marine and am meticulous with water parameters. Anyhow I just measure her salinity and it's 1.002.

She had the f8 for about 3 months and the dwarfs about 6. The f8 have some white stuff all over their body and fins. I am not sure if it's ich or some fungal infection. The camera flash make the "spots" look like spots but they are a bit cottony like or fuzzy. Can you guys ID? They are still eating and swimming fine as of last nite but seem to hoover around the surface this morning, maybe cuz I just turned on the light.

Two days ago she told me of her problem and we measured:
ph: ?
ammonia: 0
nitrite: 1ppm
nitrate: way off scale > 50ppm

She did a 30% water changes immediately and got the nitrate down a bit but they were still off the scale on my nitrate testor (>50). Water was too cold (we use bottled drinking water) from the garage so she waited and did another 70% yesterday and now its at 2ppm. Found out that she was giving plant food sticks and I think that's what spiked the nitrate. She does 1/3 water changes every 10 days

[edit to add params after the water changes]
ph: ?
ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0.1ppm
nitrate: 2ppm
[edit to add params after the water changes]

just to complete the questions. 3) she feeds too much - bloodworms. 4) nothing new except food fertilizer stick maybe a month ago 5) up for at least 7 months, cycled long time ago.

Not sure how much time they have left so please help soon. I will run to the store for her today but want to get the appropriate meds.

[crazedpuffer]

First, your nitrites are what you should be worrying about. 40ppm for nitrate is common though no reccomended. But nitrites, woah keep doing water changes till those are zero.
Also the F8s need a seperate tank and thats part of the reason why. If you keep them in FW they will suffer like that and there immune system starts to not work right and they are more suceptible to disease.
Treat with anti fungal and anti bacterial meds. Not sure which should be used but better be safe then sorry.
Also the tank is way overstocked causing high nitrate, nitrite, and the disease.
Also adding aquarium salt damages fishes immune system in the long run also, and should only be used in treating ich.
How do the dwarves handle the salinity? Most peoples suffer with any signs of salt.

[silver2003tl]

I double checked the scale. I should have been more clear, after all the water changes the nitrates are 0.1 and nitrate is 2ppm. I will edit the post...

She lost only 1 dwarf early on and i think it at the time her nitrate was around 30-40ppm or the other 3 were picking on him too much. Now with this outbreak it look like one of the dwarfs is getting ich. His spots are more defined, like a salt spec as opposed to what the F8's have which seem more fuzzy like.

I was contemplating on raising the salinity but with the dwarfs in there I didn't want to stress them. Yes I agree, she needs 2 seperate tanks, she insists her dwarfs are BW. Can they be acclimated to BW?

Regarding overstocking, how bit a tank would you recommend with 3 dwarfs and 2 f8's. The f8's are about 1.5" long.

[yunachin]

Yes, I would definitely recommend getting a bigger tank if she is going to keep that many fish in one spot. A Figure Eight requires a minimum of 15 gallons by itself. Also the salinity it requires is about 1.005-1.008.
What kind of "plant food sticks' are you talking about?

[yunachin]

I would get at least a 55 gallon for the F8's. Then you can clean up the 16 gallon and keep the dwarfs in there but they need solely freshwater.

[beachbum]

The dwarfs need a minimum of 5gals/per puffer. The F8's need a minimum of 15gals/per puffer. So even if you did put them altogether your looking at a 45gal tank. It's recommended to have them in seperate tanks. The 16 gal would be sufficient for 2 dwarf puffers, and then I would still say a 55 gal tank for the 2 F8's. I say that because a 55gal tank isn't really 55gals of water. With substrate and all you're taking away area for the fish to swim and will be more around 40 or 45gals of water.

And seriously, sit down with your wife. Maybe it's just how I read it, and if I'm wrong- I appologize, but you should seriously sit down with her and help her understand the importance of knowing what these fish need. And keeping up with them through maintenance. Over feeding isn't reommended either.

If you go to the pufferpedia or puffer library, there are TONS of articles to read about these fish. Dwarf puffers are FW and F8's are BW. Now, I have never had them, or kept them in a BW water tank so someone more experienced would have to tell you whether it's possible or not.

[silver2003tl]

The plant food sticks: Root Tab -> http://www.aquamania.co.uk/product.asp? ... &PT_ID=115
ingredients shows 3-1-1: Nitrogen-Phosphate-Potash plus Iron. I allways thought this was instant nitrate in a tablet. Looking at the package she has used 9 of them.

Hum, will need to figure out this tank space issue....

[crazedpuffer]

DP's kept in BW die very fast very soon. They are almost completely intolerant of salt.

[yunachin]

IMO I would never use something like that in my tanks. It's just too risky. My husband uses CO2 in the discus tank and that is about it. There are many options of fast growing plants that she can use to help get the tank planted to her specifications without having to use any chemicals. You can check out aquariumplants.com or someone suggested to me, Ebay. Or a LFS might carry some.

[Pufferpunk]

Sounds like she's more concerned about those plants than the fish! I use Jobe's Plant Spikes at 1/10g, breaking them up & planting them as deep as I can under the roots.

DPs are STRICTLY FW fish & will die in BW (I know, I killed my 1st 3, thinking otherwise...). I have a feeling you had more than 1 male DP in there, which is why 1 died. Males will fight to the death.

Aquarium salt does not make BW. The folk's comments above are correct on tank sizes & the 2 species do not belong together. That tank so grossly overstocked & the fish will continue to be sickly & eventually die if something isn't done ASAP. Medicine is not the answer here but you can add Melafix & Pimafix to their water. What they really need is proper housing in the proper conditions.

[CoreyK]

Agree with everyone else.
There is a good chance that their respective infections will clear up in proper conditions as well. Kept as they are, they will probably all die.

On Craigslist.com you can usually find some great deals on used aquarium setups.
A nice 3' tank would suit those Figure 8's nicely, and the DP's are fine where they are.

[CtHM]

I would think, once you can seperate the puff's I would hit the F8's with primafix. I would also hit the DP's with primafix too, on GP incase they caught the fungus too and it's just not visible yet.

[Nick]

That figure 8 has excessive sliming from what looks like ich and living in a small FW tank. The Ich will go away on it's own if you just get the SG slowly increasing, which will kill the DPs eventually, hence the need for a second tank.

[Pufferpunk]

I can't see the pics.

[silver2003tl]

http://home.comcast.net/~lorenzana_j/DSC_0157.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~lorenzana_j/DSC_0158.JPG

Couln't find Melafix & Pimafix at the LFS but got Maracyn (erythromycin) and Maroxy. Gave their first dose (of each) at about 2pm. Doesn't look good. Did I mention both F8 had this fugual/ich on them? Anyhow big F8 is ready to croak, he was on the ground. little f8 (pictured) is still swimming. Should I focus on getting the Melafix and Pimafix? Too late you think for a QT for the F8's?

Sounds like she's more concerned about those plants than the fish!

LOL, she totally love plant. And as you can probably tell also she doesn't like to read *about fish*. I complain that our house is a jungle we have so many. We have pomagranate, bannana, along with the standard stuff, tomatoes, etc. in the house. Well actually the tomatoes are dead now outside. She's excellent at taking care of those. Chemistry isn't her thing.