Porc puff with no tail...
Forum rules
Read this before posting!!
Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.
1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.
2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.
3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)
4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.
5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.
We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.
While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.
Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
Read this before posting!!
Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.
1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.
2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.
3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)
4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.
5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.
We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.
While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.
Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
Porc puff with no tail...
Well, yesterday I was at a LFS (which now I am an employee to) I saw a pretty big porc puff. He was between 8-14 inches (can't remember the exact size so I am giving a range.) It seemed he had little to no tail at all. There were not any species of fish in the tank that even seemed to be qualified as a vicious or predatory. He was just floating in the corner of the tank trying to manuver his turns without a tail. The 'wound' was pinkish which made me think it was a fresh bite but I am not to sure. Have any clue on what I should do for the puff when I get to work next saturday and or what I should direct my manager to go do? Will the puff even last the week?
<80 gal> 2 GSPs & a Ceylon!
<75 gal> 3 Figure 8s & 1 Butterlfy Goby
<75 gal> *Empty*
<55 gal> 3 Gymnothorax polyuranodon (FW eel)
<30 long> Pair of Lorteti's & Irrubesco's, 1 DP, Endlers Livebearers, Clown Pleco, Royal Pleco, 2 Bumblebee Cats
<20 long> 4 Flounders
<4 gal> 2 Sparkling Gouramis & 3 ottos heavily planted
~Tihsho~
<75 gal> 3 Figure 8s & 1 Butterlfy Goby
<75 gal> *Empty*
<55 gal> 3 Gymnothorax polyuranodon (FW eel)
<30 long> Pair of Lorteti's & Irrubesco's, 1 DP, Endlers Livebearers, Clown Pleco, Royal Pleco, 2 Bumblebee Cats
<20 long> 4 Flounders
<4 gal> 2 Sparkling Gouramis & 3 ottos heavily planted
~Tihsho~
Anything else? Should I try push that he is in a 'self-quarantine' tank? and or just move the other inhabitants out of the tank and leave him there alone? Cause in his state I want to make sure he is not to stressed anymore then he already is.
<80 gal> 2 GSPs & a Ceylon!
<75 gal> 3 Figure 8s & 1 Butterlfy Goby
<75 gal> *Empty*
<55 gal> 3 Gymnothorax polyuranodon (FW eel)
<30 long> Pair of Lorteti's & Irrubesco's, 1 DP, Endlers Livebearers, Clown Pleco, Royal Pleco, 2 Bumblebee Cats
<20 long> 4 Flounders
<4 gal> 2 Sparkling Gouramis & 3 ottos heavily planted
~Tihsho~
<75 gal> 3 Figure 8s & 1 Butterlfy Goby
<75 gal> *Empty*
<55 gal> 3 Gymnothorax polyuranodon (FW eel)
<30 long> Pair of Lorteti's & Irrubesco's, 1 DP, Endlers Livebearers, Clown Pleco, Royal Pleco, 2 Bumblebee Cats
<20 long> 4 Flounders
<4 gal> 2 Sparkling Gouramis & 3 ottos heavily planted
~Tihsho~
-
Pufferpunk
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- Posts: 32979
- Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 11:06 am
- Gender: Female
- My Puffers: Puffers I have kept:
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C valentini
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C papuan
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I will see what I can do. If I had time I would go down ASAP, but I'm swamped with homework and projects for school. Only time would be Saturday. I will try to get in touch with my manager as soon as I can, but for my own piece of mind I would preferably be there to see things are going right. Its not I don't trust my manager its that I want to be there to be part of the puffers aid.
<80 gal> 2 GSPs & a Ceylon!
<75 gal> 3 Figure 8s & 1 Butterlfy Goby
<75 gal> *Empty*
<55 gal> 3 Gymnothorax polyuranodon (FW eel)
<30 long> Pair of Lorteti's & Irrubesco's, 1 DP, Endlers Livebearers, Clown Pleco, Royal Pleco, 2 Bumblebee Cats
<20 long> 4 Flounders
<4 gal> 2 Sparkling Gouramis & 3 ottos heavily planted
~Tihsho~
<75 gal> 3 Figure 8s & 1 Butterlfy Goby
<75 gal> *Empty*
<55 gal> 3 Gymnothorax polyuranodon (FW eel)
<30 long> Pair of Lorteti's & Irrubesco's, 1 DP, Endlers Livebearers, Clown Pleco, Royal Pleco, 2 Bumblebee Cats
<20 long> 4 Flounders
<4 gal> 2 Sparkling Gouramis & 3 ottos heavily planted
~Tihsho~
-
Jager
i have dealt with such issues myself with a porc whose tail got lost to a grouper. the @ss who kept him didnt know they werent compatible (I apologize bout the language but this guy gets me going, he keeps otopi in 55 gallon tanks...... just not right.
anyway on to the sick patient. I q/ted him in his own highly stable tank and added a jungle fungus eliminator mix(nitro and fuzo antibiotics) to a dipping bucket. I then proceeded to basically fw dip the puffer but in his standard sw in the bucket to allow the meds to react to the wound. I also added meth blue and a an extra coupla teaspoons of epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) to lower the osmotic pressure from the swelling tail. this regimen was repeated every day using the same water and simply allowing the puffer to swim around for 1hour or so twice a day (you may need to do more or less depending on your availible q/t options.
his reg tank was on a 800 + gallon system so adding meds was not an answer. hower if you can add the meds directly to the q/t tank and leave it off system while you do so. hook up filtration speciically for that tank and use old bio media to balance out the waste. bio spira can help this too.
the puffer i had ended up getting into it with a very large red hairy legged hermit carb and lost a large portion of his upper skin after he jumped tanks to see what his neighbor hood hermit holding tank had to offer for food. (yes he jumped over the 1/2 inch gap between the tanks and went to town eating. )
his tail never did fully grow back, but he compensated by swimming more with his pecoral fins. he was slower but no less active. until the fateful meeting with the crab.... poor puff ....
if you dont see a raw wound id leave off the antibiotics in tank and simply do the bucket dipping for a few times, and add the epsom salts to the main tank as well 1teaspoon for 5 gallons is fine though 1teaspoon per gallon is better for any major flesh wound. if its just the finnage and not actual skin 1 to 5 is fine for now. Watch the wound to see if it is getting infected or not and be prepared to lance the wound with a needle or pin to allow the excess pus or fluid buildup to escape as well. while it is unlikely puffers are prone to getting large pockets of pus or fluid that even the epsom salts cant help relieve. in that case try to slide the point into the outer skin layer first and see if its there at an angle (ever stuck a pin through just the outer layer of your skin on a finger? kids in elementary school used to do it alot same idea just barely easing into the surface almost flat not gong straight down. if that doesnt release it try going deeper into and pricking the inner skin just barely (popping a blister style) and gently squeeze the area to force out any pus/fluid.
obviously this will be stressful on the puffer so a delicate touch and getting used to holding a fully inflated porc will be necessary as their spines are very sharp tipped enough to hurt even with the slightest pressure. Use coral gloves or other harder thicker rubber gloves (kitchen dishwashing gloves work) and cup the puffer with just enough pressure to hold him. he will inflate and as he does allow him to expand to full size always keeping enough pressure for hm to keep the inflate up. this will allow you to immoblize the puffer without anesthetics and with a minimum of stress and mess as well as less danger.
if you can get pics please post them and pm me immediately or you can email them to me if you want as ill have the email notify on on this one. also i pmed my cell number to you if you need a step by step as your actually figuring out whats up or just want advice on the guy.
good luck
anyway on to the sick patient. I q/ted him in his own highly stable tank and added a jungle fungus eliminator mix(nitro and fuzo antibiotics) to a dipping bucket. I then proceeded to basically fw dip the puffer but in his standard sw in the bucket to allow the meds to react to the wound. I also added meth blue and a an extra coupla teaspoons of epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) to lower the osmotic pressure from the swelling tail. this regimen was repeated every day using the same water and simply allowing the puffer to swim around for 1hour or so twice a day (you may need to do more or less depending on your availible q/t options.
his reg tank was on a 800 + gallon system so adding meds was not an answer. hower if you can add the meds directly to the q/t tank and leave it off system while you do so. hook up filtration speciically for that tank and use old bio media to balance out the waste. bio spira can help this too.
the puffer i had ended up getting into it with a very large red hairy legged hermit carb and lost a large portion of his upper skin after he jumped tanks to see what his neighbor hood hermit holding tank had to offer for food. (yes he jumped over the 1/2 inch gap between the tanks and went to town eating. )
his tail never did fully grow back, but he compensated by swimming more with his pecoral fins. he was slower but no less active. until the fateful meeting with the crab.... poor puff ....
if you dont see a raw wound id leave off the antibiotics in tank and simply do the bucket dipping for a few times, and add the epsom salts to the main tank as well 1teaspoon for 5 gallons is fine though 1teaspoon per gallon is better for any major flesh wound. if its just the finnage and not actual skin 1 to 5 is fine for now. Watch the wound to see if it is getting infected or not and be prepared to lance the wound with a needle or pin to allow the excess pus or fluid buildup to escape as well. while it is unlikely puffers are prone to getting large pockets of pus or fluid that even the epsom salts cant help relieve. in that case try to slide the point into the outer skin layer first and see if its there at an angle (ever stuck a pin through just the outer layer of your skin on a finger? kids in elementary school used to do it alot same idea just barely easing into the surface almost flat not gong straight down. if that doesnt release it try going deeper into and pricking the inner skin just barely (popping a blister style) and gently squeeze the area to force out any pus/fluid.
obviously this will be stressful on the puffer so a delicate touch and getting used to holding a fully inflated porc will be necessary as their spines are very sharp tipped enough to hurt even with the slightest pressure. Use coral gloves or other harder thicker rubber gloves (kitchen dishwashing gloves work) and cup the puffer with just enough pressure to hold him. he will inflate and as he does allow him to expand to full size always keeping enough pressure for hm to keep the inflate up. this will allow you to immoblize the puffer without anesthetics and with a minimum of stress and mess as well as less danger.
if you can get pics please post them and pm me immediately or you can email them to me if you want as ill have the email notify on on this one. also i pmed my cell number to you if you need a step by step as your actually figuring out whats up or just want advice on the guy.
good luck
Jager, you rock. I will call my LFS with the information when I get a chance. If I get stuck I will call you.
Hopefully my LFS will carry some of those things (the Epsom Salt won't be too big of a deal since there is a Food Lion a few shops down.)
I will see what I can do.
Thankz.
BTW I took some notes down on what you all have recomended.
Jager, would it be ok to "paint" the tail as PP said while doing the dipping process?
Hopefully my LFS will carry some of those things (the Epsom Salt won't be too big of a deal since there is a Food Lion a few shops down.)
I will see what I can do.
Thankz.
BTW I took some notes down on what you all have recomended.
Jager, would it be ok to "paint" the tail as PP said while doing the dipping process?
<80 gal> 2 GSPs & a Ceylon!
<75 gal> 3 Figure 8s & 1 Butterlfy Goby
<75 gal> *Empty*
<55 gal> 3 Gymnothorax polyuranodon (FW eel)
<30 long> Pair of Lorteti's & Irrubesco's, 1 DP, Endlers Livebearers, Clown Pleco, Royal Pleco, 2 Bumblebee Cats
<20 long> 4 Flounders
<4 gal> 2 Sparkling Gouramis & 3 ottos heavily planted
~Tihsho~
<75 gal> 3 Figure 8s & 1 Butterlfy Goby
<75 gal> *Empty*
<55 gal> 3 Gymnothorax polyuranodon (FW eel)
<30 long> Pair of Lorteti's & Irrubesco's, 1 DP, Endlers Livebearers, Clown Pleco, Royal Pleco, 2 Bumblebee Cats
<20 long> 4 Flounders
<4 gal> 2 Sparkling Gouramis & 3 ottos heavily planted
~Tihsho~
-
Jager
not at first and heres why, the merchromium acts as a sealent to keep infection out. while that is great, you have to let the nitro fuzo and meth blue in there to kill whatever if anything that is festering in there. once 4-5 dips have been done and it has no ovious reaction to the wound, (no fuzzy stuff no reddish area or anything that seems infected you can paint it.
however there is a major trade off here the pro of sealing the tail is obviously less chance of infection if it isnt.
MAJOR CON
if you think its not infected but is and you seal it you have alot harder time directly affecting the wound since its sealed from direct contact. if you plan to seal the tail id go ahead and cut off the tank from the system and directly add the meds to the tank and just moniter water quality etc so the wound is being enveloped in meds for several days before you paint it.
In my humble opinion
(yeah right) i would not paint the tail for at least two weeks if at all to ensure total wound care and be able to help fight the infections immediately. aslo standard q/t protocal to follow the fish is not to be removed from the tank other than to be dipped for 4 weeks at least. the longer you can q/t him the better this will not only allow the wound to regrow the outer skin and inner skin to ensure the puffer has the best shot, you can also retrain him to eat out of the top corner of a tank with frozen foods, this allows him to eat generally where no other fish go to eat so if he is able to make it he will have the best chance.
also make him swim for the food. if hes on one side put food on the other after he seems to have rebounded from the wound. this will help it to relearn (like a stroke patient ) how to swim as best it can and how to hover as without the tail locomotion at high speeds is not easy to do as is tight manuvering. to help reteach the crevice searching and hover ability put pvc pipes of various sizes in the tank this not only allwos the puffer to chill and hide, later you can hide treats in them and let him work to find them.
good luck man and do keep me updated.
however there is a major trade off here the pro of sealing the tail is obviously less chance of infection if it isnt.
MAJOR CON
if you think its not infected but is and you seal it you have alot harder time directly affecting the wound since its sealed from direct contact. if you plan to seal the tail id go ahead and cut off the tank from the system and directly add the meds to the tank and just moniter water quality etc so the wound is being enveloped in meds for several days before you paint it.
In my humble opinion
(yeah right) i would not paint the tail for at least two weeks if at all to ensure total wound care and be able to help fight the infections immediately. aslo standard q/t protocal to follow the fish is not to be removed from the tank other than to be dipped for 4 weeks at least. the longer you can q/t him the better this will not only allow the wound to regrow the outer skin and inner skin to ensure the puffer has the best shot, you can also retrain him to eat out of the top corner of a tank with frozen foods, this allows him to eat generally where no other fish go to eat so if he is able to make it he will have the best chance.also make him swim for the food. if hes on one side put food on the other after he seems to have rebounded from the wound. this will help it to relearn (like a stroke patient ) how to swim as best it can and how to hover as without the tail locomotion at high speeds is not easy to do as is tight manuvering. to help reteach the crevice searching and hover ability put pvc pipes of various sizes in the tank this not only allwos the puffer to chill and hide, later you can hide treats in them and let him work to find them.
good luck man and do keep me updated.
Ok, I will sure keep you updated. Thankz for mentioning the thing about the major con about painting, I will mention it to my manager but recomend it as a last resort once the medication has done its job.
<80 gal> 2 GSPs & a Ceylon!
<75 gal> 3 Figure 8s & 1 Butterlfy Goby
<75 gal> *Empty*
<55 gal> 3 Gymnothorax polyuranodon (FW eel)
<30 long> Pair of Lorteti's & Irrubesco's, 1 DP, Endlers Livebearers, Clown Pleco, Royal Pleco, 2 Bumblebee Cats
<20 long> 4 Flounders
<4 gal> 2 Sparkling Gouramis & 3 ottos heavily planted
~Tihsho~
<75 gal> 3 Figure 8s & 1 Butterlfy Goby
<75 gal> *Empty*
<55 gal> 3 Gymnothorax polyuranodon (FW eel)
<30 long> Pair of Lorteti's & Irrubesco's, 1 DP, Endlers Livebearers, Clown Pleco, Royal Pleco, 2 Bumblebee Cats
<20 long> 4 Flounders
<4 gal> 2 Sparkling Gouramis & 3 ottos heavily planted
~Tihsho~
Having a one on one experience with the puff tomorrow... I hope all goes well.
<80 gal> 2 GSPs & a Ceylon!
<75 gal> 3 Figure 8s & 1 Butterlfy Goby
<75 gal> *Empty*
<55 gal> 3 Gymnothorax polyuranodon (FW eel)
<30 long> Pair of Lorteti's & Irrubesco's, 1 DP, Endlers Livebearers, Clown Pleco, Royal Pleco, 2 Bumblebee Cats
<20 long> 4 Flounders
<4 gal> 2 Sparkling Gouramis & 3 ottos heavily planted
~Tihsho~
<75 gal> 3 Figure 8s & 1 Butterlfy Goby
<75 gal> *Empty*
<55 gal> 3 Gymnothorax polyuranodon (FW eel)
<30 long> Pair of Lorteti's & Irrubesco's, 1 DP, Endlers Livebearers, Clown Pleco, Royal Pleco, 2 Bumblebee Cats
<20 long> 4 Flounders
<4 gal> 2 Sparkling Gouramis & 3 ottos heavily planted
~Tihsho~
-
Feathers&Fins
- Figure 8 Puffer
- Posts: 201
- Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:42 pm
- Gender: Female
- My Puffers: Pufferless since Nova passed; had 2 red T.miuris, 4 T.biocellatus for many years.
- Location (country): KY (USA)
- Location: (US) Kentucky