Puffin is sick

[stargazer]

I'll star by giving you some info about the history of my set up so forgive me if it is too long of a post. I first got a 6 gal. tank and got 2 angel fish, 2 red finned fish, they looked lot small minnows with red fins, 3 ghost shrimp. My daughter saw Puffin at Wal-Mart and got him as well. He was very small, maybe 1/2 in. long. I added Aquarium Salt and at first fed him fish flakes, which the saleman suggested. He didn't like that so I started feeding him brime shrimp once a day. He liked that ,as well as the other fish. He thrived. And the ghost shrimp started to disapper at night (duh !) And then the red finned fish disappered. Puffin started to grow. I only changed the tank, all the water, at once. And re-set it up as before. I keep all the fish in jars with the old water. After letting the tank set the temp over night, I placed the fish back in the tank. My mom confessed later that when putting Puffin in the jar, she dropped him in the sink ! I thought he would die for sure. He didn't and continued to grow. I introduced small snails to his diet , which lasted only a few minutes, to keep his teeth from getting too big. I got larger ghost shrimp, to keep the tank clean, they lasted 10 minutes. I got more ghost shrimp, they lasted 5 minutes. No more ghost shrimp. I keep the temp at 75-77 degrees. I have not added anymore chemicals other than salt. A lady that owns a marine fish store said that a marine set-up was not needed for GSP, just brackish water, which was not needed til he reached 2 inches or more, then I needed to move him to a larger tank. Then I bought another GSP that was the size as Puffin when we got him. They got along fine. The trouble began when I introduced a black sucker fish to keep the tank clean and large yellow snails. After a week or so, the sucker fish died. We debated on letting the dead fish to stay in there as food or giving him a burial down the toilet. So we let him stay in the tank he was in there for 2 days before he was eaten. Nothing was left of him over night as before. The other fish don't seemed to be ill, just Puffin. He won't eat, stays at the bottom of the tank, on the rocks. If he swims, he doesn't do it like before. Like he is struggling to swim for any length of time. And breathing hard. He's been like this for 3 or 4 days. I'm scared he's going to kick the bucket any day now. Please, does anyone knows whats wrong ?

[Myaj]

Oh my goodness.

What a horror story, and I'll warn you now people are going to be shocked. Hopefully no one will be too harsh with you.

First thing you need to do right now, stop whatever you are doing, and get that fish some clean water. From now on until you can "fix" your situation, every day you need to take out some of that water (50%) and add back clean water.

You have several problems. The biggest is your tank size. 6 gallons is not big enough for much of anything, certianly not large enough for ONE GSP, or ONE angel fish or ONE pleco (suckerfish), and is insanely small for the amount of fish you put into it. So they are basically being poisoned by their own waste production, especially if you haven't been changing out their water.

Secondly, well, the tank probably wasn't cycled, and even if it was, a dead and decaying body will cause some major ammonia spikes which are a death sentence for puffers if you don't do something major.



Okay, what to do.. You need a much bigger tank, or multiple tanks actually if that angel is still alive, or you need to take the fish back to the store and give them a piece of your mind about selling live animals without proper care information.

A GSP is a brackish to marine fish that will grow to 6"+. Brackish does not mean freshwater with some "aquarium salt" in it, it means marine salt and mixed to specific levels measurable by a hydrometer or refractometer. Due to their large size, huge waste production (messy eaters) and sensitivity to bad water quality, they need 30 gallons EACH.

An angelfish is a relatively aggressive cichlid that will grow pretty large as well, and needs a tall tank, preferably a 20 gallon high or larger just for itself.

So there's your basic problems summed up. You need to start thinking about your options.. larger tanks or returning the fish (or wait until they all die, which does not set a very good example for your daughter, if I say so myself).

If you decide to keep the fish, there are some great articles in the library about keeping GSP's and we can answer more questions you might have.

And don't feel anyone is picking on you by our responses, but we are trying to get you the best info.. stores just don't educate themselves very well on "oddball" fish but selling you two angel fish AND a gsp for a 6 gallon tank is just plain stupid.

[CoreyK]

Myaj hit all the major points... basically you put way too many fish in way too small of a tank that wasn't cycled correctly (ie. has no beneficial bacteria in it to detoxify the fish waste/carcasses), which is poisoning the fish. That's the biggest reason your puffer is sick.
50-75% water changes every day will help, but you have so many more fish in there than you should it's almost helpless.

On top of that, "Puffin" need brackish water as a juvenile and (pretty much) full saltwater as an adult, and needs a tank 5x bigger than what he's in for himself.
Like Myaj said, for 2 GSP's alone you will need at least 60 gallons, the angel fish needs at least 20 gallons, and cannot live with the GSP's in brackish water.
The "sucker fish" you put in was likely a common pleco, which get about a foot and a half long, and would have needed probably 100+ gallons.

The only two options good for the fish are:
1) Buy a 55+ gallon tank for the 2 GSP's, which will be brackish, and a 20+ gallon tank for the rest of the fish, which will be freshwater.
2 Take all the fish back, do a lot of research on fishkeeping, and try again once you've learned what you're doing.

Let us know what you choose, we'd be happy to help you through it. It's not difficult, there's just a lot you need to learn.
Here's a link to get you started (this is CRUCIAL to know if you're keeping fish, and will explain what's going on in your tank right now):
http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/biolo ... ncycle.htm

[stargazer]

Ok....thanks for the disciplinary action. Now, what can I do for now, til I get a bigger tank set up ? For changing the water, do I get distilled water or tap and let it set out for 24 hrs. ? I already have a 65 gal. tank with hood, light, stand, filtration system, and heater. That's all I have for it for now. Saltwater set up does get expensive. And the lady at the marine store was helping with the setup. Now that I know that Puffin and Muffin need the tank the other type of fish are out. The advice that I have been getting for GSPs is that they are freshwater fish. I geuss that was my major mistake. And the fact that thinking all I had to do to care for fish was put them in a tank and clean it out every so often. I know what you're thinking. :she raised 2 kids and they are still alive: ??? I am not a heartless person and I do care about my pets, just misinformed and getting confused when everything I read and am told about GSPs are different. I can't take them back to Wal-Mart. The receipt has been thrown away. Plus after 90 days they won't take them back. I have had the tank for about 6 months. And Puffin and Muffin are our favorites. Do you think I should not keep fish as pets ?

[spoot]

stargazer, this is not your entirely your fault. But you learn, as most others have through rough beginning. I think the others have the main points covered. Since you already have a 65g tank, I'd suggest to put the gsp's in there now. Make sure the water is the right temperature and accilmate them slowly. Stick the filter from the 6g onto the 65g tank, as well as the filter for the 65g. This increased water volume will at help reduce the toxicity of the water. Do this ASAP, and there may be a chance of saving both puffers. As for the other fish, their lives are at risk being in the same tank as the puffers. I would return them or just give them back to the store if you cannot provide appropriate housing.

[Boxermom]

I also highly recommend reading this article. Its long but has vital information.
http://aquariumboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26

[stargazer]

stargazer, this is not your entirely your fault. But you learn, as most others have through rough beginning. I think the others have the main points covered. Since you already have a 65g tank, I'd suggest to put the gsp's in there now. Make sure the water is the right temperature and accilmate them slowly. Stick the filter from the 6g onto the 65g tank, as well as the filter for the 65g. This increased water volume will at help reduce the toxicity of the water. Do this ASAP, and there may be a chance of saving both puffers. As for the other fish, their lives are at risk being in the same tank as the puffers. I would return them or just give them back to the store if you cannot provide appropriate housing.

Now ?? Emergency setup?? Tap or distill ??? I'm sorry to keeep firing questions but I don't want to make mistakes. I don't have any rocks, plants, etc. so if it is emergency set up it will be plain jane tank til I can get the other stuff, hopefully this weekend if my paycheck allows it. BTW, ph kit ? InstantOcean ?? Anything else I haven't thought of ??

[Boxermom]

Tap water is better than distilled. You need to get a declorinator, I highly recommend Prime, its the best IMO. If you live in the US, you could also try to find Biospira. Do NOT let anyone talk you into buying any other chemicals or additives, no matter how knowledgeable the clerk sounds. All you need is a good declorinator and Biospira. If you can't find Biospira, don't get anything but the declorinator.

Marine salt is what you want, not aquarium salt. Doesn't matter what brand, Instant Ocean is a good one. You also need a Master Test Kit which has test kits for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH. The first three are critical. You will also need a refractometer or hydrometer when you start adding the salt, don't just add random amounts of salt. Make sure whichever one you get measures from 1.000 and up.

[Myaj]

Moving them to the bigger tank will be better, even with no decorations. The larger amount of water will dilute the toxins from their waste.

If you have well water, just use that, make sure the temperature is right. If you have city water with chlorine products added, then you'll need a dechlorinator (sitting it out 24 hours doesn't do the trick anymore, most cities now use chloramines instead of chlorine and they don't evaporate out).

If you can move the filter from the 6 gallon tank, that will help, but if you still have other fish alive in the 6, they will need a filter too, so leave it for them.

When you get the marine salt, you can start adding that, but the big thing right now is to get them into clean water ASAP. The 65 will be perfect for both your guys.

Don't be hard on yourself, most people don't know how to take care of fish and unfortunately people at stores don't either. My first fish were kept the same way, the tank was only dumped and scrubbed when it got so dirty I couldn't see the fish. I wondered why they kept dying. Thank goodness the internet is out here!

[CoreyK]

Do you think I should not keep fish as pets ?

Of course not!!!
If you have a 65 gallon setup, that's AWESOME. Fill that sucker and get it running, up to temperature and dechlorinated, and put the puffers in ASAP. All that extra volume will help IMMENSELY; the toxins will take much more time to build up, and the fish won't be nearly as poisoned. If you can either swap the filter from the 6 gallon to the 65, or get a hold of some Bio-Spira, even better, as this will transfer some beneficial bacteria and get a colony started in the 65 gallon.

You'll want to start adding marine salt as soon as you can, (I would personally add some before you add the fish), but it's more important to get them into that big tank with clean water ASAP. 2-3 cups of Instant Ocean in that 65 gallon should be a good start, but like Boxermom said, you'll want to measure it with a hydrometer (shoot for ~ 1.002).
All you really need now for the 65 gallon is a bag of marine salt and a hydrometer (I use an Instant Ocean swingarm one that was ~ $10; just make sure it measures down to 1.000), and those puffers will be MUCH happier.

Keep us updated with questions, we're happy to help.

[Pufferpunk]

All great advice. Whew, you found us just in time! Really lucky you already have that bigger tank for them. You're one up on lots of folks that post here in your same situation.

[stargazer]

I think I can afford the marine sand ? Or rocks ? Which of the ones I'm suppose to get. My daughter made a good point last night by saying that I needed that to get the water levels correct.

[Myaj]

If you get live rock now, you'll have to let it cycle due to die off from transporting the rock.. that would delay you moving the fish.

I would move the fish into the bare tank now, and if you get the rocks, "cure" them in a separate rubbermaid tub or a bucket..

If you want to get sand right away, the easiest stuff IMO to work with is the arag-alive stuff in the bag that's already wet. Other stuff needs a lot of rinsing, which can be a pain in the butt but you'll save some $$.

You certianly don't NEED the rock or sand at this point. They would be nice, and the sand will help buffer the water (the marine salt will do that anyways), but if getting them is going to make the move take longer, just forget it for the moment and get the fish into the new tank. If you can pick the sand up quick, I would probably add that and worry about the rocks later.

[stargazer]

I'm just worried about water levels and what would happen if I added rocks and stuff after the tank is full of water. The store I use is called Creative Aquatics they have EVERTHING I need for the tank. I got a Magnum 350 Bio-Pro Filtration System that is suppose to be able to handle aquariums up to 100 gallons. Would that be big enough??

[stargazer]

BTW, my daughter said that Puffin looks like he's trying to cough up something like he has something in his throat. I have been feeding him dry krill for his teeth. Could this be one of the problems??