The Puffer Forum

Hi everyone

I had to go to Chicago on business a few days ago, and came back to find one of my Spotted Puffers stressed out. I have this little fella and a small Figure 8 in a brackish tank with black sand substrate. He seems to be a little lethargic, though he is swimming around. His pectoral fins are not clamped. However he is VERY dark in color on his underside, and his cute green spots on top are nonexistent. I usually keep the tank at around 76-78 degrees. I think that a little while before I got home, my heater may have freaked out- I have it set at 75, but the temp in the tank was 82, and the heater was still on. Could this have freaked him out to the point that his coloration has gone totally haywire? I checked the water params other than that, there was a little ammonia, a little nitrite, and a little nitrate in there, but all were within acceptable levels. The ph of the tank was at 8.2. The water looks terrific, and the other puffer in the tank was in great spirits. Also, the GSP doesn't seem to be eating. He didn't eat yesterday because I was out of town, and though he would be famished. But when I tried to feed them, he refused to take any blackworms. The Figure 8 went crazy on them though, his tummy got huge

Any help would be very much appreciated, I just don't know if a temp differenc eof 4 degrees would freak this guy out this much.

First of all, welcome to the puffer forum!

I need some more specifics on your set up before I can really throw out any ideas. What size tank is it, and what is the salinity? The heater probably wasn't the culprit; actually 73-80 F is recommended for GSPs, and 2 degrees over wouldn't hurt him.

Unfortunately Figure Eights and Green Spotted Puffers aren't compatible long term because they require different water conditions, and the GSP will grow much larger and more aggressive. Juvie GSPs do well in a lower salinity, but by adulthood they need full-strength marine water. Figure Eights need to stay in low-end brackish with a salinity of 1.005 SG in order to live to their potentials (18+ years in captivity).

If you haven't already, take a look in our library and pufferpedia on the tank requirements of your two puffers. Eventually you will need to separate them, and the GSP would be better off if that was sooner than later since he is starting to show signs of stress.
http://www.thepufferforum.com/forum/ug. ... roviridis/

Sorry for the bad news; I'm sure all of us on this forum were a bit disappointed when we learned the two species couldn't be co-housed.

For a quick summary of what you will read in the library and pufferpedia:

Figure Eight:
Minimum tank size: 10 gallons, 15 recommended
Salinity: 1.005 sg (marine salt, not aquarium salt)
Maximum size: 3"

Green Spotted Puffer:
Minimum Tank Size: 30 gallons
Salinity: 1.010-1.024 risen slowly to marine as they mature
Maximum Size: 6"+

Let us know if you have any questions, we're here to help!

Thanks for the reply!!

Right now I have those two little guys in a 20 gallon tank in my room. I have a 72 gallon Cichlid tank in the living room, but I dare not put any puffers in that one! I'm not exactly sure what the SG of the tank is, but I generally have put the same ratio of salt in this tank that I have my Cichlid tank (1 tbsp per 5 gal). The pet store didn't bother to tell me about the compatibility issue, darn it! I guess what I could do, is buy a bigger tank for the Spotted guy when money permits, and leave the Figure 8 in the 20 gallon. How long do I have before I would need to separate the two? They are very young, the Figure 8 is only about an inch long, and the GSP is probably 1 3/4 inches or so. I didn't know about the marine salt thing, could I use Instant Ocean or a product like that? I will have to keep that in mind next time I do a water change.

Another thing I should mention is that this is not the first GSP that I have had in the tank. I got one a few weeks ago, and almost immediately after I got him home (the next day), he had some nasty fungus looking spots on him. I tried to treat him, but it was too late. A day or two later the Figure 8 quit eating, so I treated him and he made a great recovery. He is now a complete pig when it comes feeding time, and his belly is white and shiny & his colors are beautiful. (I used Melafix and some QuickCure). The new GSP has seemed to like it better with low/ambient light in the tank. He has always gotten a little uptight when the tank lights are blaring on him. The Fig8 doesn't seem to mind though.

I will check out the Puffopedia as you said! THanks again!!

I am by no means an expert and relatively new to "puffing" but according to what I have learned...

I would guess your SG is somewhere around 1.001, maybe less. You can use any of the salts they sell for salt water aquariums because it contains a bunch of other beneficial stuff that the puffers need and it does a good job buffering the pH. Just out of curiosity do you have plants in your Cichlid tank? I don't think you are supposed to put aquarium salt in tanks with plants, it will kill them. But anyways, yes the 20 gallon should be good for the one f8 and you could possibly add some bumble bee gobies or mollys as they tolerate the same conditions as the f8. As both puffers are small, I don't think you will be having problems with the tank size right now but you should try to work the SG up to 1.005 (maybe try 1.001 increments every week or two). Maybe some of the more veteran guys can tell you how long before a GSP needs to be moved to higher SG's.

I would recommend getting a refractomer. You can get one on ebay for around $25 which is what I imagine to be a Chinese knock off of the same refractometers that sell for around $45 at aquarium stores. I tend to avoid knock offs on principal but in terms of quality you will not be able to notice a difference between the two. I had ordered what I thought to be an authentic (shipped from america) yet I received it shipped from China so go figure.

It could just be that the GSP is getting acclimated to his new surroundings. Do you have lots of decoration to keep him entertained and hiding places for him?

Eraser,

My GSP also doesn't like it when the light is on. I find him under the heater.

At the lfs I purchased two fake water lilies that float on the top of the tank. That seemed to help diffuse the light and the little bugger seems happier.

Mary Anne

Eraser, no problem, it's what we do!

As for the 72 cichlid tank; I would not put either puffer in that tank either. Cichlids are strictly freshwater fish, and although the 72 would be wonderfully large for the GSP, he would, again, be in improper water conditions. The Figure Eight would be very happy in the 20 gallon with a few tank mates (maybe some Bumblebee Gobies as Helicopter suggested, or some mollies). The Green Spotted will need his own tank of 30 or more gallons.

What you can easily do now for them though, is buy a hydrometer and some marine salt (Instant Ocean, Red Sea, Aquatic Gardens, etc). Slowly, over several weeks, raise the salinity of the tank to 1.005. That will make your Figure Eight happy, and the GSP happier until he can get his own tank with proper salinity of 1.010 or more.

Add enough salt each week to raise the salinity about .002 (no more or it will kill the beneficial bacteria in your tank). Marine salt is dangerous if added directly to the aquarium (can cause gill-burn), so pre-mix it in a bucket before adding to the tank. This also makes it easier to control how much salt you want to add. Once the salinity is at 1.005-8 you'll be adding about 2 1/2 Tbls per gallon.

I'm glad the lower lighting is helping your GSP settle down; I've never heard of puffers having a lighting preference but MinPins has had the same experience.

Come back to us if you have further questions!

I checked the water params other than that, there was a little ammonia, a little nitrite, and a little nitrate in there, but all were within acceptable levels.

I didn't notice that anyone addressed this statement so I thought I better. There are no acceptable levels for ammonia and nitrite, in a cycled aquarium they should both be 0. There is a very good chance that your GSP is showing distress from being in an uncycled tank. You have two choices here, get some freshwater biospira and add it to the tank to immediately cycle it (accept NOTHING else, and make sure the retailer has it in the fridge and keep it cool, but not frozen, until you use it) or start up on those water changes. With two puffers in such a small tank you should be doing a min. of 50% water changes a week anyways, get yourself a refractometer and some instant ocean and get your salinity up (slowly so you don't kill off the bacteria... OR personally if it was me and I had access to biospira I would do a water change to raise the salinity and then add the biospira)

Get your GSP his own tank ASAP

Good luck, also be sure you are feeding more then blackworms... small snails are a great hit as both fish need their teeth worn down.

Thanks so much for all your terrific replies, I am very fortunate to have found this forum!

Unfortunately, I came home from work on lunch to check on things, and the GSP was dead. It had to have happened between 8 and noon, because he was still alive when I went to work. After work I stopped by a pet store and bought some Instant Ocean, a hydrometer, and a little airstone for the Figure 8 to play in. I checked the specific gravity of the tank, and helicopter, you were right on. It was around 1.001. So that probably wasn't too good for the little fellas. I then did a 50% water change (10 gal) and added about 4 or 5 tablespoons of the Instant Ocean. I checked the salinity a bit later and it was around 1.003 or so. I also added 2 capfulls of Cycle (the stuff with the live bacteria in a dormant state).

About the cycled tank- no it was not really cycled, but what I had done was this: I set the tank up about 3 weeks ago or so. As I said earlier, I also have the 72 gallon cichlid tank that is about 6 months old or so. The water quality in there is always perfect- it never registers above 0 on any of the baddies (NH4, NO2, and NO3), and has a ph of about 8.3 (our water here is the perfect ph for cichlids). So what I did is I filled the 20 gallon tank up with about 10 gallons of water from the cichlid tank, and 10 from the tap. Then added some salt, stress coat, etc. I figured that adding the water from the cichlid tank would allow it to be like a fully cycled tank that had just had a 50% water change, but perhaps it wasn't right for the puffers....

Hopefully the little Figure 8 guy lasts, he has been hanging out near the bottom and it looks like he is breathing kind of hard. That's what the GSP was doing before he expired. The only difference is that the GSP was pretty much totally listless and had a very dark belly, whereas the Fig8's belly still looks white and he gets up from time to time and swims around with a good amount of energy. What could the hanging out near the bottom and breathing hard be indicative of?

Thanks so much for all of your help!!!!

Bobby

Oh and one other thing about the diet, I have been giving them some snails. The pet store where I bought the puffers was nice enough to give me a whole bunch of them for free. They have tanks that they use for fry and such, and those things just multiply like wildfire. I put several in a mason jar and tossed a piece of lettuce in there last night. Today I got home from work and checked them, and most of them were attached to the piece of lettuce, looks like they are having a snail feeding frenzy!

The bacteria you needed from your established tank is in the gravel/decor/filter media... not so much the water. Take some of the gravel and put it in the new tank or squeeze the filter media into it etc.

I might be wrong but I think the hard breathing is a sign of ammonia poisioning?

As PP said, the cycle is garbage.. you're just adding more waste (ammonia) to the tank, there is no such thing as live bacteria in a dormant state, biospira is the ONLY product that will cycle your tank... please stop using it. Do you have some Prime on hand? If you are having a ammonia issue you can use that along with your water changes (it can be dosed higher to help in emergencies, read the directions on the bottle)

Be sure you're mixing the salt into the water before you add it to the tank (ie don't add salt directly to your tank) and you really want to mix & heat your saltwater 24hours before adding it (ie put it in a tub, add a heater & airstone or powerhead and let it mix up, check the salinity adjusting as needed and then do a water change)

Good luck.

Thanks for catching that GSPdragon, I didn't realize this tank wasn't cycled and I don't know why I didn't ask.

I'm sorry for your loss, Eraser. Now you need to measure the params daily, and if you detect any ammonia, do a 50% waterchange and test the water again. Seachem Prime, as GSPdragon suggested, would be a good idea to pick up ASAP. It will not only dechlorinate the water but also detoxify the ammonia (the ammoia will be in a form less toxic to the fish but would still feed your biological bacteria). Don't use any other brand of ammonia-remover because that will interfere with your tank's cycle.

Water from a cycled tank won't cycle the 20 gallon, there isn't enough bacteria in the water. If you have some filtermedia from the cichlid tank you can place in your figure eight's tank that would help out tremendously.

Keep us updated on the Figure Eight's condition; he is in a very dangerous spot right now, but if you keep checking the params regularly and doing waterchanges as soon as you detect ammonia, he should make it unless too much damage has already been done. Definitely grab some Prime; I've seen it sold in all of the major pet stores like Petco and Petsmart, so hopefully there's a place near you that has it.

Thanks for the well wishes, my ammonia is at 0 right now, as are nitrites. The Figure 8 is still breathing rapidly it seems, but he has been eating normally and does like to swim around the aquarium and check things out sometimes. It is just worrying because he just hangs out on the bottom quite a bit. Could it be that he has damaged his gills from the ammonia, and has trouble picking up enough oxygen, and can't sustain activity for long periods of time? And if so, is this something that will eventually heal?

As far as filter media, I recently (a week ago) cleaned my filter from my cichlid tank (it's a canister filter), so that probably wouldn't be top dollar. However, we have a tank with 3 Oscars in it in the basement, and that filter hasn't been changed in quite a while. I could probably throw one of the filters from that tank in there, wouldn't you think?

As long as your Figure Eight tank isn't any higher than 1.002 sg that would be fantastic. I would just rinse the dirt from the filter media in the Oscar tank's extra filter (in some old tank water), that way you know you aren't introducing more waste into the system.

If your puffer is still eating that is a great sign! If you have a lot of current in the tank maybe you could reduce the flow of the filter a bit so he doesn't have to expend as much energy right now. He will heal up if you can keep him eating & healthy right now. Try to get one of the filters from the Oscar tank and that will help a lot.

After you introduce the filter still keep an eye on the water params. Keep us posted!

OK will do, and thanks again for the info! The SG of the puffer tank is around 1.002 or 1.003, but we do normally add aquarium salt to the Oscar tank, so the SG of that one is probably around 1.001 or so. So maybe the bacteria would be used to the slightly higher salinity of the Oscar tank (as opposed to totally freshwater) and could adjust a little easier to a 1.003 environment? I don't want to waste the bacteria!

It's kind of crazy, the Figure 8 hangs out at the bottom and looks like he's struggling, yet he only has a very small amount of gray on his belly, and still eats like a complete pig. Hopefully that is a good sign!

Thanks again for all your help, and I will most definitely keep you posted.

Well, for reference, I have NEVER seen any color whatsoever on my two Figure Eight puffers' bellies. The appetite is a very good sign, but I would take the color in his belly as a warning that he's not out of the woods yet.

I would dilute the water in the Figure Eight tank, because unless you are adding Marine Salt to the Oscar tank (and I fail to see why you would?), the water conditions will be different in either tank. Get the Figure Eight tank down to 1.002 just to be safe. The tiny change in salinity will be ok for any existing bacteria in the tank, and another small water change could never hurt in this situation.

I hate to tell you to raise the salinity only to tell you to bring it down, but now that the situation is more clear, getting the tank cycled is much more important than raised salinity right now.