The Puffer Forum

i have two DP's (and two endler babies.... ).

i *think* they are both females. ones a little aggressive towards the other but there are plenty hiding places (5 craft pots and a few rock formations). should i take one back and look for a male?? they both have what sorta looks like eye wrinkles but no tummy stripe. they are right at an inch long so id imagine this is how big they get. the yellow on their tummies kinda remind me of buttered popcorn Jelly Belly's(ew).

im feeding them black worms and snails... and endler babies (if they ever get around to eating them!!)

ive been pretty impressed with myself. neither do any glass kissing. they both are quite occupied with the tank set up. they havent claimed dens yet but i think thats because i need to put a pebble in the hole in the bottom of the pots. they can swim through a few of them.

its heavily planted 5g. tons of Java Moss. a bit of Val, a Amazon Sword(im gonna try pruning the tall leaves off and see how this works) and a Dwarf Lily Bulb. the substrate is 1" Eco Complete and 1" gravel. i supplement with the Plant Pak by Flourish. also a 13w CF and a little bit of natural light (gonna see how the location works)


here is a pic of Big Spot (and Three Spots nose)-


and one of Three Spot-





ok.... be critical. the tank size isnt going to change. my filter WILL, its a 2-5g filter (which has a vine growing out of it... you know i have NEVER had a nitrate problem?? LOL)

THANK YOU!!
-ash

How bout a full tank shot?

The aggression wouldn't get much better with a male. Larger territories would be the best bet.
How long has the tank been set up?
What are your water parameters?
Did the tank have any occupants before?
How long has it been set up?
What is your water change schedule?

5 gallons certainly isn't ideal. Would it not be possible to upgrade a bit to a 10?

Phaedrus wrote:How bout a full tank shot?

The aggression wouldn't get much better with a male. Larger territories would be the best bet.
How long has the tank been set up?
What are your water parameters?
Did the tank have any occupants before?
How long has it been set up?
What is your water change schedule?

5 gallons certainly isn't ideal. Would it not be possible to upgrade a bit to a 10?

hi Phaedrus! thanks for the prompt response!!

upgrading to a 10g IS possible but not for a while. i have a 10g of which i just moved my endlers into. eventually id like to see them in my 20g, planted with some of those new Galaxy Rasboras. but alas, thats a bit down the road.

this 5g has been set up for almost 8 months.
ammonia/nitrites ZERO, nitrates 5ppm (new test kit)
endler family was here before the puffs. laid fallow for 1 month (cycled) and vacuumed well before adding puffs.
i change my water out as it needs it. which is weekly of 3g or as soon as my nitrates reach 10ppm, at very most. my nitrates are typically undetectable.

full tank shot? sure, ill try to include the plants in QT jars too.

the aggression isnt bad. no nipped fins, no one is actually catching each other. they have NOT established territories yet.

i have to go get our other car from the shot. give me at most a half hour to get your full tank shot. maybe longer if i have to set up some lights.

THANK YOU!!!!

-ash

The tank will likely have no problem keeping up with them biologically, it's the aggression problem that will likely continue and worsen. I asked for a full tank shot to get a sense of the layout. The dimensions of the 5g will limit you greatly in what you can do to break up lines of sight and define territories, etc.

The extent of the aggression will depend on the puffers, but DPs are pretty tenacious. They won't let up. They likely HAVE established territories, though it may not be obvious.

Potential solutions are to swap out the 5g for a 10g, either as a trade in, or second hand, etc. a 10g is pretty cheap. Or return one in the meantime, though that may be a worse fate. Or, use a tank divider to separate them. I wouldn't leave them picking on each other for more than a week or so if at all possible if you start to see signs of stress.

hey Phaedrus again,

sorry i didnt get back to you yesterday, the car took longer than we thought and then had Girl Scounts to get ready for and go to. i will get right on that full tank shot today.

one thing thats helped since then is keeping them fed. im wondering if i wasnt under feeding them before. i was giving them one black worm at the end of the day. im going to start feeding them a worm in the moring and one in the afternoon so they have food in their bellies through out the day. *shrugs* they hang out when full, avoiding their obvious territories. Big Spot is behind some slate i have and Three Spot is behind a pot.

my mother has a dentist appointment in an hour that i have to take her to, and then watch her shot for a bit. then i will be back home. expect the pic by noonish.

full tank shot-


see the stick?? got some drift wood thats to follow the line that makes. ill attach the java moss on the bottom in that area to it.
the area behind the slate is where Big Spot sleeps, the bit of Java Moss in the front and center is where Three Spot sleeps.
my val looks horrible. its transplanted from another tank. took me a bit to get my lighting and fert right for that one. new to this whole planting thing. got Hiscocks book on the way (if it ever gets here).

the amazons spot-


see the round rocks? thats where i will plant the amazon. might trade it in for java fern?? not positive yet.

lily spot-


the amathyst marks the lily's place.

the lily, same plant from another tank-


the lily and amazon are both in QT right now.

-ash

the bulb will do better planted in the gravel and you could benefit from tying the java moss to the plant pots to create a more natural hidey hole

It's tough to break up the lines of sight in such a small tank, but it can be done. For instance, in my signature, the tank on the far right is a 5g that had a single DP in it. A couple tall fake plants were enough to give the scenery some height and break up the swimming area. A 10 gallon is a bit easier because you can use larger decorations and plants.

A few more decorations or plants would help a lot in breaking up the space and that should help a lot with the aggression.

If you go the plant route though, you'll need to have proper lighting more than anything. Unless you want to get serious about a planted tank, fertilizers, etc are probably unnecessary and would likely contribute to an algae problem.

More plants or other stuff to break up the tank would be helpful.

I cannot positively identify the sex of your DPs but they look from the pics to both be male, if that is correct they really need a lot of line of sight breakup so they can have their own territory. You commented that both have eye wrinkles which would indicate they are male. It's the best way to tell, I had a male that camoflaged for a year, I was convinced it was female due to the "speckles" and subservient behavior, then he got eye wrinkles and next he began to challenge the older male in the tank.

I've kept 2 males in a 5 gal and one was very subservient, there were no fights for a long time. If both are belligerent you could have issues, others have posted nasty fights among males in small tanks. Keep an eye on them for aggression towards each other.

I would definately get some taller plants in there to block sight.

I think your puffers are too young yet to positively sex, though I'm pretty sure at least one is a male (big spot, the sheer amount of yellow coloring), but they just seem a little too young yet to know for sure.

sorry to flake out for so long!! been a busy (few)week(s) for us!


some changes-

i removed my larger filter and added in two smaller ones. both are rated for 5g so it creates a bit of turbulence but nothing thats tossing them around. they have no issues puttering about. the reason for this is that i used a larger flat rock to divide the center of the tank along with some Java Moss. i wanted to make sure both sides have enough water flow. they have the Amazon Sword on one side of the division and im QTing a Java Fern bunch for the rest of the tank. i think ive figured out whats wrong with my plants! nitrogen deficiency. i took the vines out of the filter boxes and hopefully that will help. i have to modify my hood a bit to put a 28w blue CF bulb in it. thats my project for this coming weekend (if the hubby doesnt fly out to Vancouver). id also like to QT two otos for this tank. keeping them fed isnt an issue but space may be. what do you guys think??

the Dwarf Lily Bulbs... i was told to NOT plant them by the lady i bought them from. if i CAN, id LIKE to bury them, but was worried abotu the bulb. i have them in my endler tank right now.

they have decided where the physical lines of their territories are. there is a bit of squabbling but no real contact. making it myself with the rock and Java Moss helped a bunch.

you guys talk about all of the yellow on Big Spot and its the same on Three Spot. im fairly sure what one is the other is also.

i talked to Chris about possibly picking up another 5g tank and sending one puff to work with him. he sounds thrilled but we both feel its not going to happen right now.

im keeping a very close eye on these too boogers. they sit her in the living room next to my computer. ill keep you posted on their aggression!

thanks for the support and advice!

-ash

I hope you kept and used the filter media from your old filter.

What makes you think nitrogen deficiency? what are your nitrates at?

2 otos would probably be ok. hard to say what the DPs would do to them. likely ignore them, but you never know.

keep us posted.

yes, both filters were stocked with media from the old filter.

my nitrates are undetectable, which i thought was a good thing. ive been waiting for Hiscocks Encyclopedia. it arrived yesterday.

ill look into getting those two otos. maybe by the time we get those two out of QT then it will be time to work on the two for his work tank.

-ash

The reason some people get scared when nitrates are zero is one of the times they are zero is when the tank has a biofilter crash, and there are no bacteria left to convert ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate... also, uncycled tanks have 0 nitrates for the same reason, no bacteria.

Nitrogen deficiency is pretty common in heavily planted tanks and often has to be added into the tank when they get too low via potassium nitrate (preferred) or sodium nitrate, both if which are readily available from garden supply stores and online.