The Puffer Forum

hello everyone! i am thinking of getting a few F-8's and wanted to ask a few questions first. Ok, i have a 30Long fully cycled for about 2 months now, and was thinking of putting some F-8's in it. it has a black sand substrate and is full of lots of driftwood. i read that driftwood might not be very desirable with brackish water? if so then why, and what would be good to decorate with? How many F-8's could i safely house in a 30Long? The Ph of my water is fairly soft (generally between 6.0 - 7.0) is that going to be good or do i want to add maybe some rock that could possible raise the Ph? currently i have 2 bushynose plecos for cleanup, would they be suitable for the light brackish water or would i want to replace them? if so what would be good instead? i had more questions last night and now i'm drawing blanks....if there is anything you guys think i should know, then please share, i'm ALL ears....er....eyes...you know what i mean. thanks a lot!

Hi, welcome to TPF. It's good that you're doing your homework before getting your fish...F8s are great.
If you've got water at a pH of 6 or 7, then an aragonite substrate is best, as it slowly dissolves and raises the pH. Around 8 is best for F8s.
Driftwood is not a good idea in salty water, as it leaches stuff into the water....tannins, I think, and this brings the pH down again.
In a 30 long, you could have three, as long as the tank has lots and lots of decor, plants (plastic or silk - live ones die in the salt), hollow (plastic) logs, hamster tubes, hidey holes etc etc, as each fish will often want to retreat to his own little patch where the other two can't see him.
The other reason for having a complex tank decor is so that the fish have got plenty to explore, and you should change it around every fortnight or so...just watch them having a good look around!
Is the tank brackish now?
I believe plecos are freshwater, so prob won't handle the salt.
You'll most likely find your F8s have been kept in freshwater at the shop, so let them settle in your tank for a couple of weeks - without the plecos), and then start raising the salinity veeerrry slowly...when you start doing that, get back to us, unless you've done it before.
Errm...can't think of anything else...I'm sure there is though!
Pami.

First off, welcome to the board. I heartily recommend reading the article in the library on Figure 8s if you haven't. Now on to your questions.

Driftwood can soften water, and brackish fish need hard water. I have driftwood in my tank, and I think many others do, too, so it's not a problem in and of itself.

Your pH is low, using SW mix to make your brackish will raise it. The bigger issue is what is your KH? You don't want it too low to allow for pH crashes and such. Many folks use argonite substrates to both assist with raising pH and KH.

Your tank is plenty big enough for two figure 8s, but no pleco is brackish in nature and a puffer might like to try to nibble on them anyway. An algae scraper and gravel vac are you best clean up crew in BW.

Feel free to ask more questions. I'm new to puffers myself (I also have a figure , but there are many folks on this board with tons of experience and my answer, hopefully, is simply what I've learned from them.

Eric

Looks like Pami and I were typing replies at the same time!

Eric

ok i'm headed to the LFS after work to pick up some salt. the store has their puffers at 1.004 sg so i'll match that to start with and slowly bring it up around 1.005-1.008 from what i've read? i'll pull most of the driftwood, and the plecs tonight. i really like my black sand so i would love to come up with another way to harden up my water. are there any type of decorative rocks that would help in this process or am i going to have to use a chemical of some sort? i don't have any testers for Kh so i'll pick something up while i'm at the store.

You will need to have something in the water with a huge surface area to volume ratio so's it's got a big area to dissolve into the tank water, so aragonite is prob your best option. I dunno if they do it in black, so you may have to mix it in with the black sand, or change the black sand over.
Obviously, don't change it all over at once, cos your sand has got nitrifying bacteria in.
Pami.

so basically i NEED to get some of this substrate to at least mix with my sand?

I'm not sure if need is the right word - I've also heard of folks using a bag of it as a layer of medium in an aquaclear filter, but I've not tried that myself so don't know how effective it is (less of the stuff, but it constantly has the water flowing through it).

Also, limestone helps, too, but since I tend to use argonite for my tanganyikan and now my brackish tanks, I'm not sure how much limestone would help by itself.

Maybe argonite in your filter along with limestone would be a good combo.

Hopefully, someone will chime in who has experimented with these issues...so I wouldn't go changing substrates in advance (the black stuff does look nice).

Eric

I'd wait for RTR to have the last word...he'll know if the bag in filter set-up is adequate...if it is, that'll be great for you.
Pami.

A layer of crushed coral or aragonite in your filter would certainly raise the KH/pH of your tank. It would need to be replaced more frequently than a substrate proper, but the net effect is the same, assuming you have a filter of moderate-to-high flow. What kind is it, btw?

Driftwood does indeed leach tannic acid into the water and will bring your pH down.

As Pami mentions, salinity shouldn't be raised greater than 0.002 per week.

Last word, me? I wish! LOL!

I like using calcareous substrates in ligh BW to support high alkalinity and pH. I have for years suspected that this is equally or perhaps more important for the F-8s than the actual salt content, but have not tested that rigorouly to be able state it as fact - call it educated guess, or maybe a hypothesis? My choice is aragonite.

I have used many different materials (in canisters) in bags to add/stabilize GH/KH to the tanks with success, but I have not done this for light BW, because I use the material as substrate. It will work, but I cannot guestimate the quantities - it will be more than I have used (tablespoons) in FW tanks.

HTH

i'm using an aquaclear not sure of the model number but it is for 40-70 gal tanks, and mine is 30 so i should be all set as far as flow. i'm going to clean it today, and i'll try putting some of that substrate in my filter. that is a good idea. i'll start with a small amount so i don't make any big changes too quickly. thanks for all the input, and if there is anything else don't be afraid to change the subject. any advice you have is very helpful to me. thanks

I recommend putting it in panty hose knotted at the top (Pufferpunk's suggestion to me once upon a time) so it can be easily lifted out for access to the rest of the filter media.

Absolutely be sure and bag it! ACs are great for being able to use whatever you want as media - that's why I love them...plus they run forever and even my parents (two of the worst fish keepers known to man) haven't been able to kill one.

Eric

how long would something like this work without being replaced? will the substrate visible dissolve? or just trace elements in the substrate? this might be something i just need to "play by ear" but if anyone has done it, try and estimate.