SAP Shaking

Oh no! Sick fish?! Come here and see if someone can help!
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Read this before posting!!

Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.

1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.

2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.

3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)

4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.

5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.

We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.

While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.

Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
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drankdripline
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SAP Shaking

Post by drankdripline » Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:29 am

Hello again,

This time I am truly at a loss, any help is much appreciated. I have four SAP's in my 20 Gallon. I would put them into my 75 but I am waiting until they are bigger. They are only one inch currently and since they were shipped to me I wanted to treat them for IP and make sure they were eating.

When I first got them, I treated the appropriate dose of General Cure into the water, and I also mixed it into their bloodworms. Every puffer was and is eating. However, when I finished dosing the GC i noticed that the nitrates were skyhigh (120ppm+) and I did a water change until it came down to 20ppm or so. I did the waterchange a little fast and I dosed Seachem Prime to detox the water. All of my fish seemed healthy and reletively happy.

I feed them twice a day. Once to get them to bite on freeze dried krill (which I dont let them finish) and again to ensure their bellies are well rounded.

This morning I woke up to my Black Ghost Knifefish up against the filter, I moved him into a QT tank. I never had much luck with knifefish so I never thought much of it. Now, however I see that one of the four puffers, the smallest, is shaking. He is still trying to eat, and he is doing so with success. But his movements seem (not kidding) like someone with Parkinsons. They are the correct movements to make, but they are just shaky.

I don't know what to do now. I JUST treated the whole tank for IPs and gave them GC, the water params are good and if it was Nitrate shock then this is a few days late but maybe it can happen?

Please advise me, you all rock.

Ammonia < 0ppm
Nitrite <0 ppm
Nitrate < 20ppm
Temperature : 76F
Salinity: only some aquarium salt added
Tank Age: 2-3 years old.
Community: four SAPS, one small molly, and a corycat
Filter: sponge and HOB

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Pufferpunk
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Punkster, the 4" red T miurus
Mongo, the 4" A modestus
2 T biocellatus
C valentini
C coranata
C papuan
Also kept:
lorteti
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suvattii
burrfish
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Location (country): USA, Greenville, SC
Location: Chicago
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Re: SAP Shaking

Post by Pufferpunk » Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:50 pm

I'm sorry, at a loss here... Symptoms don't sound familiar. Your parameters are spot on unless the high nitrate stressed him out some. How long have you had them now?
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...

"The solution to pollution is dilution!"

drankdripline
Puffer Fry
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:01 pm
My Puffers: Four South American Puffaroonies
Location (country): United States

Re: SAP Shaking

Post by drankdripline » Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:15 am

Pufferpunk wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:50 pm
I'm sorry, at a loss here... Symptoms don't sound familiar. Your parameters are spot on unless the high nitrate stressed him out some. How long have you had them now?
First of all, I just want to say thank you for always responding and running this forum. I love these puffers (dont know why but I do) and you have helped me tons a long the way. This forum is an amazing gift.

Anyways, to answer the question, I have had them for about two weeks now. One has always been a little off (glass skimming/away from the pack) and prompted me to start the GC right away rather than letting them settle in for a couple days first. Its this one that is causing me concern. The smallest. But as I said, treatment ended a week ago and the shaking is just showing now.

User avatar
Pufferpunk
Queen Admin
Posts: 31350
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 11:06 am
Gender: Female
My Puffers: Filbert, the 12" T lineatus
Punkster, the 4" red T miurus
Mongo, the 4" A modestus
2 T biocellatus
C valentini
C coranata
C papuan
Also kept:
lorteti
DPs
suvattii
burrfish
T niphobles
Location (country): USA, Greenville, SC
Location: Chicago
Contact:

Re: SAP Shaking

Post by Pufferpunk » Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:52 am

Is it consistent or just occasional? Almost sounds like a nervous system issue. I'm gonna tag Marco in this.
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...

"The solution to pollution is dilution!"

drankdripline
Puffer Fry
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:01 pm
My Puffers: Four South American Puffaroonies
Location (country): United States

Re: SAP Shaking

Post by drankdripline » Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:05 pm

It seems to be consistent, but most noticeable when looking for food.

nmonks
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Re: SAP Shaking

Post by nmonks » Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:33 pm

Assuming the fish is feeding normally, and behaving in the usual way otherwise (e.g., curious about its world, interacting harmlessly with the other SAPs, etc.) I'd not medicate yet. I would (as others will doubtless suggest) perform frequent water changes over the next few days in case there's been some exposure to an airborne or waterborne toxin, such as a cleaning solvent used in the house (not necessarily by you). I don't often recommend carbon, but again, it can be useful for removing toxins.

Nervous disorders can occur when fish are exposed to stress (e.g., shimmying in livebearers) and in some cases pathogens are involved. But these sorts of disorders are very poorly understood as far as I know, with very little by way of diagnosis available to aquarists, let alone treatments. Some get better under their own steam, as with shimmying once the fish is exposed to good conditions for a decent length of time. Some may be related to dietary shortcomings, such as thiamine deficiency (where fish have been fed thiaminase-rich foods like prawn and mussel for too long) and recovery can occur once the diet is improved (e.g., ideally by using a marine fish vitamin supplement, or at least by switching to thiaminase-free foods like cockles or gut-loaded foods such as Spirulina-enriched brine shrimp). Others may be genetic or developmental, and there's little you can do here except hope for the best.

One challenge with SAPs is that they're wild caught, and it's entirely possible they're infected with parasites or pathogens of which we know nothing. It's rare for this to be a major problem (farmed fish tend to be more sickly, in my experience) but nonetheless it is possible. Some pathogens we do know about, like Velvet and Skin Flukes, can cause intense irritation in fish, so medicating prophylactically with these where you see unusual levels of flashing, nervousness, darting, and so forth can be useful. Puffers (even freshwater ones) are very tolerant of salt, so the old salt/heat method for treating Velvet can be a cheap and effective solution. Short dips in full strength seawater can even be used, judiciously, to remove external parasites including flukes and crustacean parasites like anchor worms.

Cheers, Neale

drankdripline
Puffer Fry
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:01 pm
My Puffers: Four South American Puffaroonies
Location (country): United States

Re: SAP Shaking

Post by drankdripline » Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:09 pm

nmonks wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:33 pm
Assuming the fish is feeding normally, and behaving in the usual way otherwise (e.g., curious about its world, interacting harmlessly with the other SAPs, etc.) I'd not medicate yet. I would (as others will doubtless suggest) perform frequent water changes over the next few days in case there's been some exposure to an airborne or waterborne toxin, such as a cleaning solvent used in the house (not necessarily by you). I don't often recommend carbon, but again, it can be useful for removing toxins.

Nervous disorders can occur when fish are exposed to stress (e.g., shimmying in livebearers) and in some cases pathogens are involved. But these sorts of disorders are very poorly understood as far as I know, with very little by way of diagnosis available to aquarists, let alone treatments. Some get better under their own steam, as with shimmying once the fish is exposed to good conditions for a decent length of time. Some may be related to dietary shortcomings, such as thiamine deficiency (where fish have been fed thiaminase-rich foods like prawn and mussel for too long) and recovery can occur once the diet is improved (e.g., ideally by using a marine fish vitamin supplement, or at least by switching to thiaminase-free foods like cockles or gut-loaded foods such as Spirulina-enriched brine shrimp). Others may be genetic or developmental, and there's little you can do here except hope for the best.

One challenge with SAPs is that they're wild caught, and it's entirely possible they're infected with parasites or pathogens of which we know nothing. It's rare for this to be a major problem (farmed fish tend to be more sickly, in my experience) but nonetheless it is possible. Some pathogens we do know about, like Velvet and Skin Flukes, can cause intense irritation in fish, so medicating prophylactically with these where you see unusual levels of flashing, nervousness, darting, and so forth can be useful. Puffers (even freshwater ones) are very tolerant of salt, so the old salt/heat method for treating Velvet can be a cheap and effective solution. Short dips in full strength seawater can even be used, judiciously, to remove external parasites including flukes and crustacean parasites like anchor worms.

Cheers, Neale
Neale, thank you so much. I ended up medicating again today after seeing little to no improvement since the Nitrates became a safe and low level (<10ppm). Furthermore, the puffer is so small despite constant feedings I can't imagine there are no IPs. This time, instead of using General Cure I am using metroplex and focus in their food. I am holding off of using kanaplex unless the metro proves ineffective as I see no reason to subject the little ones to even more meds. Heres hoping the metro does the trick!

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