The Puffer Forum

It has been a few years since I have kept any puffers but I have an empty 450L 150x60x50 and my 2yr old is bonkers about puffers so mulling over the idea of a group of Carinotetraodon irrubesco with catfish making up the other inhabitants, after doing some research this seems to have been done a few times but does anyone have any input reg long term success ?

It is really touch and go with puffers, some will allow other species but most won't. My only advise is don't get too attached to any catfish in the tank. The puffers are more interesting on their own though. I'm afraid puffers just don't belong in a community generally speaking

That is how I have always kept my puffers in the past (species tanks) and how I would normally recommend people to keep them but quite a few people seem to be mixing Carinotetraodon irrubesco with good results just wondered if anyone here had experience of that long term.
450L would be imo to big for most single fw puffers and not big enough for the rest, so would be looking for a group of some sort.

Some puffers would live happily in groups in there, if you would consider brackish water you could do f8 puffers and bumblebee gobies as they often mix ok. In a tank as large as yours you have many possibilities. No tank is too big for a puffer lol

South American Puffers (SAPs) do quite well in groups, but don't really "school" much. They are quite likely to nip fins on many catfish however. They also absolutely require mass production of ramhorn and/or common pond snails as these are needed to control their incisor growth. These fish have about the highest snail requirement of any puffer I have kept. Without snails as their primary food, incisor overgrowth and frequent dentistry are too frequent. They are quite active, searching all the plants for hidden snails. Good current along the front glass also provides them with high activity.

My irrubesco has proven to be an OK (not great) community fish, at least as long as she is well fed.
Problems:
Occasional bites with dwarf frogs (in both ways - the dwarfs bite my irrubesco too), but both have strong skins. No visible injuries so far on the irrubesco (dwarfs are toothless), small injuries quickly healed on dwarfs.
Has fin-nipped my kuhli. Not anymore, my irrubesco seems far less interested and my kuhli don't hang around when the irrubesco gets close
Has eaten a little bit of guppy fry, and will continue if she can catch it, which is not easy. Good imho, I have far too much of them, it's survival of the fittest (especially as their own mothers eat them occasionally too, and probably dwarf frogs also take their share...maybe even ghost shrimps if they are lucky)
Bullied my travancoricus. It is better now, the travan is watchful and clever enough to premptively go away early enough to avoid charge. But is is not easy to feed him, he now appreciate a lot frozen bloodworms (it took a little bit of time)....but so does my irrubesco, and when she see the worms, travan have to (and is clever enough) to move away from the food and let my irrubesco have it. So it takes a little subtility to feed him, especially as the irrubesco always follow me to beg ....keep her distracted with one hand and feed the tranvan with the other
Slaughtered the snails, all species (except maybe some MTS hiding in the substrate). I am not sure about the average half life of a snail in a tank containing a travan and an irrubesco, but is is counted in days at most, most probably hours if not minutes. Even in your big tank, I suspect a group of irrubesco will exceed reproductive speed of any snail species, even a large established group. Maybe MTS may barely survive borrowed, but not even sure....
Small shrimps like red cherry. Not seen them eaten, but they have slowly dissapeared so....

Sucesses:
Sewelia loach. Quick enough to go if irrubesco is too inquisitive, and feed on algae mostly and flakes reaching the ground, so no competition at all.
Larger shrimps, like amano and ghost shrimp. My irrubesco is definitely very interrested in them, but they are too quick. However, i have an open tank and have lost 3 (in 4 month) jumping of the tank. This rate is higher than before I had the irrubesco (I lost maybe 1-2 every year before i added her, I have a lot of floating plants that offer partial suicide protection ), so I suspect evasive action of the shrimp do not always end well (even if they are effective against predation)
Adult guppies: endler varieties so no overly large fan-like fins. They are quick enough to escape predation or even bullying (the irrubesco do not even try anymore). More than that, they are aggressive, strong and quick enough to steal food from the travan (I have to protect him to feed him, or be subtle enough to give him his bllodworms when he is out of sight of guppies and the irrubesco), but also from the irrubesco. She is quick enough to have most of the bloodworms if I give it to her directly with pincer, but simply dropping them in her general vicinity while guppies are near would not do it. The guppies would take the lion share...This is crazy, they are fed flakes too and eat some algae, so they do not need the bloodworms...but they still jump on it. Mines are real mini piranhas, not worried at all that my irrubesco kill or injure them. Not even speaking of my poor travan who is affraid of them
Pollution. With the kind of individual feeding I do and my guppies quick on the food the puffers have missed (or even not missed), I have no issue linked to messy eating. Any partially eaten snail will quickly be cleaned by ghost shrimp (they also are snail predators - although far from the genocidal efficiency of the puffers)

Well, that's my 4 months experience and I like my irrubesco a lot, more and more in fact (less timid than the first month, now she beg every time she see me, constantly surfing the glass closest to me (or any human. Their are clever fishes....but still fishes ) as soon as she have spotted the food provider And she attack the pincers which I use to give her food, even when there is no food and I am just using it for tank maintenance... But I think u have to take this experience as one possible outcome, it can be different with another irrubesco, or I can have less positive experience when she age (even if she is not a juvenile anymore, size is about 4.5-5cm). Also they may be more aggressive to tank mates when in group. Especially with large shrimp, I have seen some report of pack hunting and amano/ghost may not be able to evade 2 or more irrubescos, even if they are quick and attentive enough to escape one female. Males are larger too (sometimes significantly larger, in length but also volume and look more "muscular"), and probably more aggressive on average.

Personnally, if I get my planned bigger tank (135Lx75wx45h), I will try a small group of irrubesco with various other inhabitants. So if you do it, I would be very interested in your experience

I'd be tempted to go for a planted low brackish system (say SG1.003@25DegC) with a few Figure 8's, some Knight Gobies (dorsal fin may tempt some Figure 8's), a pair of Orange Chromides and possibly around 6-8 wrestling halfbeaks (only one male though) for the top of the tank to try to keep their aggression among themselves. If I wanted something to loosely shoal I could replace the halfbeaks with Guppies but the tails may tempt the puffer.

I'd love to put a T. Microlepsis in there but it would probably grow too large and there could be all sorts of trouble if it viewed the puffer as a potential meal.

The biggest problem with keeping puffers with other fish is that the puffer will outcompete most fish for soft foods, then not bother going through the hard work of eating the crunchy foods needed to keep their teeth worn down. This leads to dentistry intervention on a regular basis.plus no matter how accommodating a puffer seems to his fishy friends the puffer can turn without warning, leaving you to scoop many shredded pets from your tank. But every puffer is different and you can only find out one way.

Is teeth overgrowing a problem with carinotetraodon species? Many sources (puffer pedia for example) says they are less susceptible than other puffers (while SAP are more. The main reason I fear to house them...) and I have never saw a report of teeth problem or dentistry on any dwarf or red eye...I have mine for to little time to be sure, only thing I know is that the way dwarf hunt snails will not provide much teeth wear...they bite and suck out the body without touching the shell, even for small snails. My irrubesco trends to do the same...

Dps don't have the incisor problems that other puffers do, not certain on the irrubesco though. Saps teeth grow at rediculous rates but can be controlled with a proper diet, making dentistry rare.

Thanks for the replies folks.
I will have to look into this a little bit more reg possible species to mix.
How many irrubesco would people say in 450L, 6-8 or possibly more ?

+1 to Bertie's advice again. Puffers are often tried in mixed tanks, especially when immature, but sooner or later there tend to be issues. Puffers tend to be relatively long lived fish, and when the Orange Chromides want to breed (which they will when mature), there will definitely be issues. Been there, done that, had to separate all the fish. A waste of effort and not good for the fish involved. I do not know the age at maturity for most Carinotetraodon puffers, but it should not be more than a quarter of their tank lifespan at the most. I don't set temporary tanks, other than for initial QT. It seems too much of a waste of time. Puffers may not have the long lifespans of some loaches, but they are certainly comparable to the Cichlids. Very few captive fish are really annuals. Some of the smallish schooling Tetras are effectively annuals in the wild, but in captivity should live 8-10+ years. Even the smallest puffers can match and most should exceed or double that figure.

Pet owners don't plan on abandoning their puppies or kittens or fledgling birds when they become adults, why should fish-keepers handle their wet pets differently? I do not understand why so many fish-keepers think otherwise. Puffers, even DPs, are high-personality fish. Enjoy them without abusing them.

Off soap box, return to regular programming...

Tenacious wrote:Thanks for the replies folks.
I will have to look into this a little bit more reg possible species to mix.
How many irrubesco would people say in 450L, 6-8 or possibly more ?

I would not try more. I think it is really the footprint that count, if your have 6 it means each of your puffer will have 50*30 cm to build a territory. Which would be 2 in my current tank. I can imagine that (I have one) cause it is heavily planted. 3 and I can see possible problems, I think they need space so that when a dominant charge, the other one can easily escape without contact and quickly get out of the aggressor sight.

Also, it would mean 2 males with 2-3 females each, sounds good. 3 males may be too much...but I think it also depend on how much decor and plants you have. Again, as I plan a very similar setup (I planned 6 irrubesco, 2 males and 4 females, also in about 450l but in a shallow tank with wide footprint, riparium-style), I am very interested in your experience if you start your tank soon

6-8 in such a large tank may not seems a lot, and indeed in the first month you may not see them enough....but based on the behavior of my irrubesco after the first 2 months, I would say it will change, as they are real little beggars. As soon as u will get close to the tank, they will come to meet you and ask for food except if the completely change their behavior when in group: In the shop where I found mine (they do not have them anymore, they are probably seasonal and expect some to be back for sale early autumn...), there were like 4 in a 80Lx40wx30h. With a lot of apo. fenestralis bulbs providing effective hiding places (mine was quite difficult to catch) but without fully breaking line of sights. This setup resulted in frequent charges (also by another fish, looked like a cichild maybe, 6-7 cm and a burrower, which always had the upper hand) but apparently no injuries (went there 2 weeks hesitating before buying my fish, and none showed fin marks or scars). It was also fully covered in duckweeds, I think red eyes are more comfortable in twilight, at least at first...

Remember, with puffers less is often more. You really get to see personalities if you give them more space. I would go for 4, I have kept pairs of dps in 90l tanks and they burst with personality. Once the puffers realise the link between humans and food they will be out scooting round the tank every time you are in the room.

bertie 83 wrote:Remember, with puffers less is often more. You really get to see personalities if you give them more space. I would go for 4, I have kept pairs of dps in 90l tanks and they burst with personality. Once the puffers realise the link between humans and food they will be out scooting round the tank every time you are in the room.

1 male and 3 females? I will work of course, and they will have a lot of room...but I will play the devil's advocate and say what all beginners (and many non-beginners) will think: if Tenacious follow the advises of RTR, this would be 4 small (4 to 6 cm) fishes in 450l. Can put a lot of inverts (but not sure about keeping them, depending on which inverts we are speaking about... although the puffers will like it :p) and a lot of plants, but still, it's a 450l, 150cm tank. That's quite an investment of money and place and electrical bill for 4 small fishes....Honestly, how many people here have a long running tank with such a small bioload?

Thinking more about it, it may be an interresting, lively tank: could try reproduction the natural way in there, and with a lot of plants, good soil, Walstad method, and a large established population of shrimps without brackish larvae stage that will be able to reproduce in fresh water, and MTS and other snails, it may be almost self-running. This could be a nice low-tech tank...but it will be very different from the typical 150cm community. I have to think about it, maybe without the small fast fishes (like my guppies) and a lot of mosses juvenive shrimps would be able to hide and/or get ignored by the irrubesco, who would prey on adults? Has anybody tried an "el natural" tank with puffers? Is it feasable to establish a stable foodchain for them?