The Puffer Forum

Yesterday when I was in the LFS I saw what I think was a 3" F8 in saltwater along with some GSPs. They don't have brackish tanks so whatever they get they put into either fresh or marine. Its pretty irritating. Anyways, this puffer was so washed out it was basically a light brown mottled color with medium gray spots below the dorsal and in front of the tail. One of the employees was talking about how she took home one of the Figure 8s that had been acclimated to salt water. She was laughing about how he was blind and kept running into things. I can't stand to leave a fish at a store to die like this, or to have them sell it to someone with a marine tank, especially when its something I want anyways and I have a tank I could put it in, but would it be a lost cause for me to bring him home and lower the salinity? Would he make it and still live a long life? Is it likely that he's already pretty old considering hes already 3"? And is there another type of puffer that it might be?

I know this is a lot of questions but I am pretty new to this. I have had a puffer before but he died 2 days ago. He was also sick when I bought him and improved but I guess it wasn't enough. After 2 weeks he died and I had my water tested. SG was 1.006, ammonia 0, nitrite 0, ph 8.2. He seemed active and happy and I didn't see any more spots of ich on him but he started acting listless, stopped eating, and died, all within 24 hours. He was about 1/2 inch to 3/4 of an inch long and I had acclimated him from freshwater to that salinity in about 2 weeks. I was getting advice from some people on another forum but I thought I'd come over here where there seem to be more puffer owners.

Any suggestions on whether I should get the other puffer or not, or ideas on whether or not I could have done anything else to save the first one, would be appreciated!

--Tammy

I would get him. I'd also ask them please to not get anymore until they can be in brackish water.

Kim

What SG was he at the shop? Maybe you put him from a high SG straight to a low SG which caused him stress.

The one that I got a couple weeks ago that died the other day was in freshwater at the store. He came in with a shipment of dwarf puffers and apparently I was the first to recognize that he was a figure 8. I raised the salinity to 1.006 over about ten days, although I didn't think it was quite that high until the LFS tested the water. It could be their hydrometer was wrong, or that my estimations were wrong, but I don't have a hydrometer at home yet.

I think thats what you were asking, Raphael?

The one that is at the shop now is in full marine.

You shouldn't have raised the SG so quickly. You should raise no more that .002 per week.

I wish I had known that . I had read other places and been advised by others that it was OK to do it faster than that. I was thinking raising it would help cure him of his ich, and it did, but, well the rest of the story is there. Still can't be sure that was it but just in case, I will certainly do any other adjustments more slowly for any puffers I may have in the future.

As far as the Figure 8 in the store, if I get him, should I prepare a full marine tank for him here at home and lower it extremely slowly for him or would it be better to get the salinity down a little faster?

I'm just not familiar with the whole salinity issue and want to be more sure of what I'm doing before I try again. I don't want to lose another puffer.

Please, anyone, everyone, I'd like to hear your experiences with acclimation and how they went. Good, bad, embarrassing, whatever. It would help me out a ton!

Tammy

As tempting as it is to rescue unfortunate fish from the LFS when they do boneheaded things like this, buying him only reinforces their bad behaviour, and prolonging what may be an inevitable death only brings more heartache for the well-intentioned.

If I were you, I would politely complain to them about their poor care, and ask that they take the time and effort to convert them to FW. And tell them that you would not purchase one otherwise.

In this case the LFS would have done better to have the F8s in FW than SW. But there is no easy way to quickly acclimate them back to a reasonable SG. If you do decide to rescue one, you'd have to balance getting them out of SW as quickly as possible with going slow enough so as not to shock their system any more than necessary. I don't know if it would be better or worse to just take them straight from marine to an SG of say 1.010 and lower it from there to a more appropriate 1.004ish. Hopefully someone more experienced can say what the best course of action is.

As for your other puffer that died, raising the SG so quickly probably had something to do with it (though if he had ich, you were dealing with an already weakened fish). That's a very large change in salinity in a very short period of time. You definitely NEED a hydrometer. This isn't an optional piece of equipment if you are serious about brackish or SW fish keeping. A refractometer is even better. Don't leave it up to calculations and estimates. The only way to be sure is to check.

This is frustrating. I don't want to offend the people at the LFS because it is the only LFS within 30 miles of where I live other than chain petstores. I go in there all the time. I have other fish, all freshwater, and they do much better with those, but lately as I have been interested in brackish fish I am realizing how badly they treat them. Another sad thing I've seen in there this week is a brackish goby being kept in a freshwater tank. He has been there for a couple of weeks and the last two times I went he was sitting in a corner covered in fungus. Still breathing but that was the only sign of life in him. Somehow he has been holding on, but it is hopeless. Who would want to buy something in that bad of condition? And if he's left there, he will certainly die. I do need to talk to them but the girl who usually does the orders has, I think, worked there a long time and seems to think that she is quite the expert, even though she seems to know nothing. I haven't had a conversation with her yet where I didn't have to just quit in order to avoid saying "uh, you're wrong". She's the one who took a F8 home to her marine tank. I have printed off some information on F8s and GSPs and am considering giving it to her, and suggesting that she trade the F8 for a GSP, since they already have a couple decent looking specimins in the shop. I could tell her to please not order any more brackish fish but I might have to give her a list because honestly I doubt she knows. I'm probably going to end up chickening out, though because I don't want to be offensive. She just has that shake to her head like someone who doesn't like to be told they're wrong.

It can be very hard to confront complete strangers about things like this.

Rather than being really confrontational, maybe just work it into a conversation about the fish and how you've done some research and discovered some interesting facts of the matter that they may not have been aware of. Bringing them information is a good first step, and showing your respectful displeasure need not turn confrontational.

I have a better idea. Give us the name and phone number of the store. Let's all call, ask for the owner, and givem hell. I hate, HATE to hear stories like this. It just makes my blood boil. Covered in fungus...grrrrr.....

Some clarification is needed I think.

Slow changes in the specific gravity of an existing tank are done primarily for the nitrification and heterotrophic bacteria in the tank. These can and will adapt to slow changes while appropriate strains happy in the new density are developing. The FW and SW strains/species of nitrification bacteria overlap rather than having sharp cutoffs. When we are increasing or decreasing density slowly we are allowing for this change in colony makeup without seeing toxic metabolites. This is the rationale of the the changing no more than 0.002 in specific gravity reading per week, and slower is equally good or more likely better. It does the fish no good if we change it to an appropriate specific gravity and then kill it with toxic metabolites because we have killed the nitrification bacteria.

Puffers, as with many BW fish, can change specific gravity more rapidly without harm. They do it in the wild routinely, but at their own choice and speed, not at our whim. We can drip-acclimate puffers much more rapidly than we can the bacteria. Several of us here have done this when absolutely necessary. This does not mean that the slower adaptation we use in the tanks themselves is not far better - IMHO & IME it is.

HTH

Thank you very much for that RTR. It does explain the differences in the information I have been getting. I did not destroy the bacteria in the tank and watched it very closely with the other puffer. Maybe he just wouldn't have made it no matter what I did.

I went to walmart today and they had Figure 8s there. It broke my heart. All of them had ich, half of them had fungus, half of them had concave stomachs, and a few had injuries to the mouth. I looked carefully for one that looked like it might make it if I took it home, and saw one was active and visibly only had a minor case of ich and his dorsal fin was ripped. He seemed the best candidate, but I don't have enough experience to know how to recognize one with parasites. Is it an indication of parasites when the front part of the tummy is thin and the back is thicker, as if he ate something but is still not gaining weight? Is is possible to treat for this? I talked to the employee there about the puffers and explained that they should not be kept in freshwater conditions and fed only flake food. The ones in the tank were evidence of this. I asked if things were set up in a way where they could prevent more from being sent to the store, since they would probably just die. She said she would talk to someone and see if there's a way to prevent them from being stocked. She seemed like she meant it, but I don't know if anything will come of it. I didn't buy one but I want one and it is breaking my heart to see so many of them being mistreated like this. It almost seems like I might as well pay for it and try to save it if I can because not buying it isn't going to keep them from stocking any more, right? This is a real issue for me since I can't seem to find any healthy figure 8s and dying ones are all over the place.

Hey Tammy,

You shouldn't worry about offending your LFS. They work for you! If they do things you don't agree with you should bring it up with the manager. Talking to employees is USUALLY a lost cause. There are some excpetions of course.

I haven't had good F8 luck either. I've had one die mysteriously and the other I recently bought died very soon. My new-ish GSP and dwarfs are just fine. Go figure.

Good luck!

Thanks very much for clarifying RTR. It's a huge help to have people like you and pufferpunk (and the rest of the moderators) who have years of experience and a wealth of information to share. I'm learning, but I don't have all the answers. :p

Tammy - I know how you feel. You want one badly, and you hate to see them suffer. Keeping an open dialog with a few of the receptive employees is the best you can do. Some will be more willing to help you if you are friendly and polite with them and discuss your concerns every time you're there. Eventually you might be able to influence their practices.

I would not buy a fish unless they were healthy looking. Simply because you end up fighting losing battles and indirectly encourage the store to keep stocking the fish because people are buying them.