The Puffer Forum

Hello! I've been absent from the forum for quite a while and currently don't have any tanks set up (a situation which needs to be fixed).

I'm working on setting up a research project for college focusing on Green Spotted Puffers. I'd be using this for several papers in the future and hope to learn a lot from it and share my information with everyone in the fish community.

There's been speculation that what we describe as "Green Spotted Puffers" could actually be several different species of fish. I'd like to study a group of them to see how they develop, getting as many different looking GSPs as possible.

I have two tanks I'll be using for this
Tank #1: 100 gallon brackish tank (have not decided on s.g. yet) closely resembling a Puffer's natural habitat (Mangrove swamp). 3 puffers
Tank #2: 250 gallon marine tank (FOWLR). 8 puffers
(and then a 20L tank for snail breeding)

-see how the fish fare long term in brackish vs. marine
-see if it is possible to provide a proper breeding environment in which they will naturally spawn
-see what relation body shape and spot pattern have to the development of the fish.

Things I'd be doing daily:
Photographing each fish
Writing down observations
Testing water (including PH, Temp, Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite, S.G.)
Weekly:
Water changes
Monthly:
Measuring each fish

Proposed length of experiment: ~5 years

(Hopefully I covered everything. It's 1am here, my apologies if I left out something)

What do you guys think? Anything I should add, or anything else that you think should be studied that would fit into what I'm doing?
I'm thinking I'll keep some sort of blog with my daily pictures and observations.

Sounds cool, welcome back!

Thanks PP

I'm thinking the brackish tank will be at 1.012 since that seems to be a decent representation of an s.g. in an actual Mangrove Swamp without being too low that I would be concerned for the Puffer's welfare (though if it seemed like their health was deteriorating I would up the s.g. because the welfare of the fish will always be my #1 concern).

I'd like to have some live mangrove trees growing in there, but I'm thinking of doing something like this:

Where the giant stump/roots are a hand made project and the top is a planter for the mangroves (mostly for ascetics, but I'll try to find a way to use it as a little bit of extra filtration too).


And I also got my boyfriend to agree to forfeit a large portion of his basement for this project
I'll be doing a deep cleaning of the space this weekend and starting to prepare the tanks and get them set up to start the cycling process.

It's a fantastic idea, but shouldn't all the GSP's be kept in marine conditions? Adding that variable will only skew the results of finding differences within the species. A university in Florida (I believe that's where) found that they only bred in marine conditions. And there seems to be research done that indicates they do best in at least high end brackish 1.018 SG.
Just my 2 cents, I think if you want to focus purely on finding differences within the species, their conditions need to be identical, and the only variable should be the "look" of the puffers.

Sounds very interesting. I think the number of studied specimens (11) is a little too small to differentiate between intraspecific and interspecific variability for sure.

Be sure to know where the fish you study were caught and avoid dubious sources such as wholesalers, who get GSPs from various locations and mix them up. With 11 specimens, I'd try to get 3-4 fishes from 3 different locations, preferably far away from each other and not only go for different looks.

What certainly would be good (for real taxonomic work) is to compare your specimens to type specimens, but I'm not sure if this is within what you want to do.

awww just go for DNA analysis on the different ones and if they stray too much make up a new name for them Green spotted leopard puffer, and green spotted cow puffer... LOL!! the list goes on and on

GSPs are perfectly fine in high-end BW. The reason we prefer to bring them up to SW is to save $$$ on salt, since live rock & protein skimmers are much more efficient at filtration--hence, less water changes.

The reason for having one set in brackish vs another set in marine would be to see if the brackish group has any differences in growth rate, behavior, etc.
If I had more space I'd also be testing out several other water situations (freshwater to brackish to marine; freshwater to brackish; freshwater to brackish to marine, and then at full growth back to freshwater- to simulate what they might do in the wild), but again, I'm limited by my resources and space.

I know 11 isn't an ideally large group, but it's the largest group I can do at the moment. In a few years once I have some solid findings, I'd like to do a larger scale study.
For instance, if I can find a clear way to differentiate between two species then I would later source (ideally) 100+ of each species to test in a larger scale.

@J-P I'd love to just do a DNA analysis of them, if I had access to a lab I would!

LoL that would be awesome! Good luck on this project. I am really interested to see what you find and how they interact in the different pseudo environments =)

The best thing is, it's all for school too ^.^ I wonder how that all works out for tax purposes, LoL.

Very interesting project!
I offer my 2 GSP for you experiment records if you want to receive some help.
They are actually on a 1.020 with mangrove roots and macro alga, (I'm also trying to reproduce natural location of GSP for breeding).

I'm waiting for my camera to get fix and take some pics... but you have all my support!

1.012 isn't considered high end brackish, I thought they required 1.018 at least past a certain size?

+1 to 7´s last comment, I'm sure GSP need at least 1.018 when reach 3.5 or 4" .
I had mine since they were babies, in water like this:

1" = FW
1.5" = 1.002
2" = 1.004
3" = 1.010
4" = 1.020 (actually and finally).

It's mostly speculation as to what s.g. a GSP needs. I think some of the speculation comes from the Puffer Aqualog where the author states he kept a GSP in a freshwater tank for 9 years and it did not grow as quickly as those being kept in brackish or marine. But the possibility exists that the puffer he had in FW was a misidentified species. Part of the reason I want to keep the small group in brackish water is to see if they do stay significantly smaller than those I keep in Marine.
(and as I've said before if it seems the brackish group isn't thriving I will alter the experiment and raise the s.g. because the welfare of these fish is always the most important thing)

Basically what I'm doing is looking for anomalies that I can base future research projects on since I'm forced to accept the fact that there's not much I can do without doing a large scale project with hundreds of fish.

I'm going to source three to four different distributors of GSPs and put 2 from one source in the 250 marine and 1 from that source in the 100 gallon. It's just to make sure I'm covering all the bases. For example if only the fish in the Marine tank show obvious spines (appearing as white dots under the skin) then I would later work to test the theory using a larger group of fish.
Or if the fish in the marine tank grew larger in a shorter amount of time I'd then focus on that study in the future.

I'm pretty much starting with little real information on these fish, so I need to be able to establish some testing grounds for future projects by documenting all anomalies.

This project is meant to be a starting point and to learn how to go through the process of documenting behaviors daily, along with keeping charts and working on photography skills, etc.. I want to give the project enough flexibility that I can continue to learn from this group of fish for their entire 15+ year lifespan.

And if I can get my well documented fish to breed the babies could serve as a control group for other projects. Or as a better way of testing the brackish vs marine theories since all fish would be from the exact same source. Or to see spot pattern anomalies.

Going to two different local fish stores tomorrow. Not buying yet (obviously), but I'm going to see what they currently have in stock and who their supplier is and if they are able to trace back what area the fish came from. We'll see what information I can gather

:edit:

Went to 3 stores near me to see what they had and who their suppliers are. Only two carry GSPs.
The first is called Wayne's Feed, it's a decent store for the most part, they have some unusual fish. Their supplier is called Wilson's Pet Supplies.
The second place is Pet Land, they always have really nice looking fish, but their supplier is Apet, which I have a bit of a personal grudge against, and their GSPs looked identical to those at Wayne's Feed.

I also called a place called Aquarium Adventure, they're owned by Petland but are a fish only store. Their supplier is ABC aquatics.

I e-mailed all the suppliers, along with various internet stores and pet stores throughout the country that I know will ship fish.

I wanted to update to include my notes on the details of my project.

Here is all my work so far, feel free to ask for more in depth explanations of things if you'd like.

This covers the theories I want to test, along with the details of how the fish will be kept and studied.

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Puffer Research Proposal and Theories

Purpose: To determine whether the fish known as Tetraodon Nigroviridis could be more than one species by studying a group of eleven (11) Green Spotted Puffers and keeping records of growth, behavior, and appearance.
Also to determine whether the growth rate of Tetraodon Nigroviridis kept in brackish water differs from those kept in full marine.

Variables:
Three (3) puffers will be separated into a 100 gallon tank and kept in brackish water (s.g. 1.012)
Eight (8) puffers will be put in a 250 gallon tank and kept in full marine conditions
Puffers will be purchased from three different sources ([3]Pet Land, [4]Birds and Beasts, [4]http://yhst-131292716931698.stores.yahoo.net/)

Set-up:
100 gallon:
Puffers: three (one from each source)
S.g.: 1.012
Filtration: AC 110 (+skimmer? Or canister filter?)
Décor: Replication of a Mangrove swamp in as much detail as possible
Lighting: 1-2 watts per gallon

250 gallon:
Puffers: eight
S.g.: 1.023
Filtration: Skimmer, sump, macro algae, bioballs
Décor: Fabricated liverock
Lighting: (Ideally) 4 watts per gallon

S.G.:
Puffers being kept in brackish water will be started in Freshwater and slowly moved up to brackish water by raising the s.g. by 1.002 each month until such a time that the s.g. reaches 1.012.
Puffers being kept in Full Marine will be acclimated to the full marine conditions upon arrival. Acclimation will take place over a period of time no less than 5 hours to ensure fish are not shocked by sudden change in s.g.


Identification of Puffers:
Each fish will be photographed from all angles upon arrival. Fish will be referred to as:
Store 1: A1, A2, A3, A4
Store 2: B5, B6, B7, B8
Store 3: C9, C10, C11
During research, but will be given unofficial names indicative of their Store letter. (A’s will be given names beginning with A, etc.)

Spot patterns will be accurately recorded for identification purposes and will be monitored as the fish grows.

Theories:
(I would assume one of these two things must be true based on the information I have collected so far)
1. Tetraodon Nigroviridis refers to two separate species of fish which can be told apart by nostrils, visibility of spines, and to some extent spot patterns
2. Tetraodon Nigroviridis is a single species, but grows significantly slower if raised in a high s.g. environment

Theory #1:
Things I am watching for:
Visibility of spines
Coloration (and how it changes as the fish grows)
Nostril shape
Spotting patterns
Ability to change belly color from white to grey/black
Body shape (I've noticed some differences, but would need to write a standard to test other fish against to know for sure what differences there are, and then I would also need to take into consideration individual variation, etc. etc.)
Growth rate

Since we do not know how to differentiate between the two supposed species I'll be keeping records of all anomalies and draw conclusions when I feel I have enough Data.


Other things I hope to learn:
How long before species can be identified from each other
Can both, or only one species change the coloration of their normally white belly

Theory #2
The Tetraodon Nigroviridis in the brackish tank will grow more quickly and larger in the brackish tank then those kept in the full marine tank.
Keeping them in full marine too early will result in a smaller fish than one raised in low-end brackish and then moved slowly up to full marine conditions.


Data collection:
Daily:
Water parameters will be checked
Each fish will be photographed
Records kept on behavior of each fish

Weekly:
Water changes (or when Na reaches above 30 ppm)
Measurement of each fish

Feeding schedule:
Fish will be fed twice daily, once in the morning and once in the evening.
Morning feedings will consist of a pre-made frozen food selection of clam, crab, octopus, squid, and shrimp. Portions will be measured out and frozen, then unthawed and soaked in vitamins for feedings.
Evening meals will consist of live foods (gut loaded ghost shrimp, small crabs, clams with shell, snails)
Occasional feedings of seaweed, crickets, and worms will also be provided monthly.

Lights:
Lights will be on a strictly monitored 12 hours on, 12 hours off schedule.

Substrate:
Sand substrate will be used in both tanks, sand will be stirred every three days to keep gas bubbles from forming

Medical:
All fish will be de-wormed upon purchase using discus wormer.
Fish will little appetite will be encouraged to eat using garlic soaked food and live food.
Fish will be offered hard shelled foods often to keep teeth from growing too long.

Food being raised for puffers:
A separate 20 gallon tank will be used to keep a steady supply of crayfish (marbled), snails, and (possibly) trilobites
20 gallon tank will be separated into two parts, one part will house marbled crayfish, the second part will house ramshorn snails. Tank will be bare-bottom and run on a small filter (placed on the crayfish side of the tank).

Décor:
100 gallon tank will be made to closely resemble a natural mangrove swamp. Décor will be handmade and will be created to recreate the look of natural mangrove roots.
250 gallon tank will be a FOWLR (fish only with liverock) tank. Liverock will be primarily made of artificially made rock (made using a combination of cement, oyster shells, and salt) supplemented with natural liverock. The weight of the rocks will be between 150-250 lbs.

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I wish Nick would come back, I PM'd him about this and would love if he would share his theories, but I haven't heard from him in a while Most of my theories are based off his initial findings, so credit goes to him for that. I have several messages from him from last year discussing the possible differences between the two supposed types of GSPs, but I wouldn't want to share them without his permission.

Based on his observations and my own, I believe only 4 of my puffers (from a source in California) will grow into the 6.5" GSPs we usually think of as "full grown". The other 7 will only reach a size of 3-4" and keep their bright green coloration instead of turning into the duller colored 6.5" fish.

I do not believe that a higher s.g. effects the growth rate, but I feel it should be included in the test to be sure.