The Puffer Forum

So, if you don't remember or haven't seen my other topic, I want to spend my money to get a nice puffer tank. Originally, I wanted a saltwater tank, until I learned that a 25 gal (which was the biggest that can fit anywhere in our house) was still too small for a single saltwater puffer. At that point, I decided to go to plan B and buy a PS3, but I thought about it and knew there had to be some other way of getting a puffer besides the dwarf puffer. Lucky me, I suddenly remembered about figure eights. Fine, fine, sevenyearnight and Pufferpunk told me. They're actually the perfect size.
Here's what I'm hoping for, but I'm a complete n00b at this and I've never even cared for fish before (except for the 35 gallon freshwater tank in the living room, but I only feed them), so sorry if I have a lot of questions. Mainly, I want to get two Figure Eights, a Java Fern or two, a Moneywort Plant, a Hornwort, and whatever else could work well in the tank. If 2 f8s are too much for a 25 gallon tank (although I read that they only need 10g each somewhere), I wouldn't mind having one. If anything, that's better, but I wouldn't want a tank with one fish in that case. I have no idea what to use for substrate, and the care I need to provide for the plants. I also don't know what I should provide for the f8s, what to feed them, what to keep in mind for, what SG means, actually...I'll just make a list of my questions at the end. It's just that every guide I read to brackish tanks expect me to know what they're talking about.
So, here are my questions-
1. Would 25 gallons be enough for two figure eights?
2. Would they work well with the plants described?
3. Would I be able to put the plants described in my tank?
4. What other plants can I put in my tank?
5. What other fish could I put in the tank that won't get eaten?
6. What should I use for substrate?
7. Are there any specific requirements for figure eights?
8. What do I feed the figure eights?
9. What should I keep in mind when caring for figure eights? (ie. I heard that most puffers need to have food like shells to grind down their teeth, or something like that)
10. What does S.G. mean in regards to brackish tanks?
11. Are there any guides for the COMPLETE beginner on brackish/freshwater tanks?

Thank you so much, even if you just answer a couple of these questions.

I seem to recall someone else suggesting the F8, but you wanted SW
But, I see how it is ... forget about me and only mention PP & 7

J/K
Anyways, alot of your questions are actually answered here:
ug.php/v/PufferPedia/Brackish/T_Biocellatus/

But, Ill answer them all in order just in case

IMO, 25 would be just barely big enough for a pair. But, again, it depends if we are talking about a tall tank or long tank.
Tall tank, no. Long tank, yes. You could put a small pleco in with them also or ottos. I would recommend the bristlenose pleco.
They are algae eating machines and only get about 4-5"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancistrus

Your F8 won't care what plants you have, just that you have lots of them.
Live plants, plastic, it won't care. As far as I know, they are ok with any plant.
There is no 100% safe fish from puffers. They do usually leave ottos and plecos alone.
For the most part, you want fast fish. I had giant danios with my GSP.
People have had assorted luck with different fish though.
It just depends on your puffer. If the puffer starts to see a fish as food ...
For gravel, I would suggest natural stone or crushed coral.
But, your puffer will love you if you give them live sand substrate instead.
Nothing specific just for F8s that I can think of. Standard rules for puffers apply.
Must have fully cycled tank, slowly raise the salt level cause your LFS has probably kept the poor thing in freshwater.
Only raise the salt by .002 per week. Start considering a snail breeding tank. That will be a big part of your puff's diet.
Yes, the F8 does need to eat shells for their teeth.
Brackish tanks are usually considered to be between 1.010 - 1.015. At 1.002, you get to saltwater levels.
I kept my GSP in 1.012. But, he would have eventually been saltwater.
Here is a good guide for brackish. Don't worry, it really isn't as scary as it looks.
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/sh ... -by-Sploke

Hope that Helps
Just ask if you want more info.

:O You're, like, a puffer god!
Sorry for not mentioning you. I'm usually really stubborn when I want something until I break and realize that there's no way to get it.

Some responses in order:
1. Pleco it is . I'm really just planning to have the puffers, so as long as it's just big enough for them to be in, a celebration is in order. Are there any plecos from here that would do well?
2. I'll go with plastic. Cheaper, easier, smaller.
3. I'll stick with the pleco, then .
4. I want my puffer to love me, so I guess I'll get live sand. (I have 2 grand to spend, so I don't mind if stuff gets a bit pricey)
5. And the standard rules are...
6. I'm buying online, this website in particular. I wouldn't dare buy from one of those death traps called LFS's.
7. As a complete contradiction to the above statement, I have a Petco nearby that gives me dozens of snails for a dollar. Would those work? They're very small, look like the right size.
8. This is what confused me. How would I start off with the whole salt thing? Since 1.002 is saltwater, does that mean that a smaller number means more salt? What do the numbers stand for? And lastly, would the water likely start off at 1? I can't imagine getting it to 1.012 from 0.

If you are going to put 2 f8s in there I would not add anything else as they will max your tank, follow the links above, and good luck

No plecos or oto cats, F8 puffers are brackish water and that SG will kill freshwater fish, especially those that normally inhabit soft acidic water.
Water spirit is a good brackish plant, but you'll have to check the others.
Please do not get a pleco for sure!

Sg of 1.003 - 1.005 for figure 8, so that is the SG your plants would have to be able to withstand.

Ok, also DO NOT get live sand, that is for a full salt water tank, and anything that may possibly still be alive won't survive at that very low salinity. Live sand will just effectively polute your tank with ammonia.
Ok, so no freshwater tankmates, period. You could get a few bumble bee gobies.
No live sand, get aragonite "dry" sand
Freshwater is 1.000
Brackish is 1.003 - 1.019
Marine is 1.020 - 1.025
Your puffer will be in the low brackish range. 1.003 , 1.005, not more than that.

Sevenyear wouldnt 2 f8s fully stock that tank? It's only 25 gal for BBg's maybe a bigger tank would be required?

With 2 puffers in there there isn't room for some BBGs. You could try them if you only put one F8 in.

I didn't suggest that he get 2, I advised as if there would just be one. Sorry for the confusion. I think 2 in that tank period are kind of cramped.

Ahh I see I personally wouldn't put two in there as it sounded a bit small lol. Sorry sevenyear didn't catch what you were trying to say

The Puffer Forum recommends 15(US)G for the first F8 and 10(US)G for each additional F8 on top of that but the fact that Bumblebee Gobies are so small and don't eat very much I think the OP would be fine with 1 or 2. Just add 1BBG per 20cm diammeter of tank base and the additional bioload would be minimal.

CyberBob has given quite a bit of misinformation (sorry CyberBob) so have a look at the Puffer Forum Library for some good F8 guidance.

Iliveinazoo wrote:The Puffer Forum recommends 15(US)G for the first F8 and 10(US)G for each additional F8 on top of that but the fact that Bumblebee Gobies are so small and don't eat very much I think the OP would be fine with 1 or 2. Just add 1BBG per 20cm diammeter of tank base and the additional bioload would be minimal.

CyberBob has given quite a bit of misinformation (sorry CyberBob) so have a look at the Puffer Forum Library for some good F8 guidance.

I looked back over what I typed. I didn't see any misinformation. But, I did find some bad typos
I've been up all night with a toothache. I've had some major surgery on my teeth recently.
My hard drive crashed last night, so I am using a laptop and often make typos on this thing.
But, add the hydrocodone with the laptop and the typos comeout more.

Here are the corrections:

CyberBob wrote:I seem to recall someone else suggesting the F8, but you wanted SW
But, I see how it is ... forget about me and only mention PP & 7

I really was just joking

J/K
Anyways, alot of your questions are actually answered here:
ug.php/v/PufferPedia/Brackish/T_Biocellatus/

See, the 1st piece of advice I gave was to read the PufferPedia

But, Ill answer them all in order just in case

IMO, 25 would be just barely big enough for a pair. But, again, it depends if we are talking about a tall tank or long tank.
Tall tank, no. Long tank, yes. You could put a small pleco in with them also or ottos. I would recommend the bristlenose pleco.
They are algae eating machines and only get about 4-5"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancistrus

I still say 2 F8s and a bristlenose pleco would be fine in a 25g, as long as it isn't the tall type. You really need a long tank.
But, your tank would be maxed. You could get by with a couple BBGs also, but that's where I'd stop.
If you can get a 29g, that would be better.
It doesn't seem like much of a difference, but it would add just enough room for the extra fish you want.
The bristlenose could handle 1.003 with no problem, 1.005 would be pushing it. They are commonly kept in 1.004 at fish stores.
In fact, petco keeps all their "freshwater" fish at 1.004. Not that they like the salt though, salt doesn't help freshwater catfish at all.
Your pleco would be fine in 1.005, but it would prolly cut a few years off it's life. The kidneys would burn out sooner.
Some plecos wouldn't even survive a month though. Bristlenose is pretty hardy though.
ottos can survive in 1.005 also. But, make sure you start everyone out in fresh and slowly raise it.
If you want either of these plecos, 1.003 would be better then 1.005.

Your F8 won't care what plants you have, just that you have lots of them.
Live plants, plastic, it won't care. As far as I know, they are ok with any plant.
There is no 100% safe fish from puffers. They do usually leave ottos and plecos alone.
For the most part, you want fast fish. I had giant danios with my GSP.
People have had assorted luck with different fish though.
It just depends on your puffer. If the puffer starts to see a fish as food ...

By no means was I suggesting putting giant danios in that tank.
That was just my example of the type of fish I used. (Fast & semi-aggressive, able to get away or fight back a lil if needed)
Also, giant danios are fine in brakish. But again, no way should you get giant danios for that tank.

For gravel, I would suggest natural stone or crushed coral.
But, your puffer will love you if you give them live sand substrate instead.

gravel, yah... natural stone just looks nice and is cheap.
I should add that puffers are more comfortable with dark gravel and a dark background. it makes them feel safer.
I do add some crushed coral to my tanks just to keep the PH balanced though. But, I wouldn't make that my only substrate by any means.
typo - natural stone & crushed coral, not or
I didn't mean to type live sand. just regular sand substrate. I use the term live sand so often, I just naturally type it I guess.

Nothing specific just for F8s that I can think of. Standard rules for puffers apply.
Must have fully cycled tank, slowly raise the salt level cause your LFS has probably kept the poor thing in freshwater.
Only raise the salt by .002 per week. Start considering a snail breeding tank. That will be a big part of your puff's diet.
Yes, the F8 does need to eat shells for their teeth.

nuttin wrong here that I can see

Brackish tanks are usually considered to be between 1.010 - 1.015. At 1.002, you get to saltwater levels.
I kept my GSP in 1.012. But, he would have eventually been saltwater.
Here is a good guide for brackish. Don't worry, it really isn't as scary as it looks.
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/sh ... -by-Sploke

typo - 1.001-1.015 for brakish.
I could have also stated that the F8 is low-end brakish (1.005) but, you would have read that in their profile.
typ0 - 1.020 for saltwater.
that really is a good guide, read through it and it would have fixed my typos
[quote
Hope that Helps
Just ask if you want more info.[/quote]I really do hope that helps

Sorry to disagree bob but a plec is no good, too much bio load for a 25 g with 2 puffers. Way too much,

CyberBob wrote:But, Ill answer them all in order just in case ]I still say 2 F8s and a bristlenose pleco would be fine in a 25g, as long as it isn't the tall type. You really need a long tank.

A pleco would not be happy at the recommended SG for Figure 8s. Plecos don't tolerate salt well. I personally wouldn't have one in a brackish tank, even light brackish.

I should add that puffers are more comfortable with dark gravel and a dark background. it makes them feel safer.

I haven't heard this before. I do know that my F8s seem very happy with their substrate of white aragonite sand.

I have two F8s in a 29 gallon tank. The space for them seems ample now that they're babies, but once they reach full size, I have a feeling I might want to upgrade to a larger tank.