The Puffer Forum

Went to a LFS to get some RO water for a saltwater tank I'm setting up. This being my first SW tank I thought I would take the opportunity to ask some questions while the other dude was getting my water. I asked him if the organisms on the live rock would cycle my tank. He said it was basically a crap shoot. He went on to say "cycling tanks is so ten years ago" and "if you go through a nitrogen cycle you are doing something wrong.". ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!?! Then of course he tried to sell me some bottled bacteria called TLC. he told me to dump it in my tank and come get fish tomorrow!!!! Honestly I was dumbfounded and couldn't even speak. Then as the other guy was loading our water into our trunk he told me that he often uses GSP's to cycle marine tanks with!!!! I won't be going back...I'll continue, from here on out to just drive the hour to Austin to get the things I need.

Not saying that there are not good LFS out there and many knowledgeable employees in some of those stores.... but I have found more often than not that staff in LFS are lacking in even the most basic aspects of fish and fish care. Especially in the larger chain stores.

Whenever I look into anything new,...I will ask the people at the LFS for their opinion, as well as people on specialized forums (like TPF) and also do research in books and/or the internet. Then I look for the info or methods that have been tested and tried by others and weed out the BS.

We have all heard about or been subject to bad advice and people more interested in sales than whether or not the animals survive the week. I run a little side business to support my hobby,... selling fish, inverts, and plants and I have turned away many potential customers because I felt they were not prepared or able to provide a suitable environment for my livestock.

It is unfortunate that in business these days there are not many full-time staff being hired into these positions and the majority of staff in LFS are part-timers who may 'like animals/fish' but have only a passing knowledge of actual proper care.

"cycling tanks is so 10 years ago?? A GSP to cycle a SW tank??"

At the first statement I was not surprised that he was trying to sell you the magical "A cycle in a bottle"... granted those things can be helpful but they do not replace a proper cycle.

The second statement made me sad. I also don't understand cycling tanks with "starter fish" or goldfish. I am not even sure what "starter fish" are.... but the other day I ran into a person I know in a Fish Shop. I said something like "what are you doing here?" and she said "Oh just looking to see what I might want to add to my tank" Me: "You have fish?" Her: "No not really, just starter fish" Me: "What? You mean feeder goldfish?" Her: "No, starter fish" Me: "What is a starter fish" Her: "I don't know, that is what they sold me at the Other fish store"

So now I feel compelled to go to the Other fish store and see what she is selling as "Starter fish" Gawd, I hate that store!

Well I had a tank to fully cycle without an ammonia spike with a bottle of a bacterial supplement before. But it's going to cycle somehow anyways. A really good friend of mine puts up tanks all the time and just add fish afterwards without any deaths. You know they have to be cycling with the fish in the tank. Believe it or not they live through it all without showing any stress. Everyone does it differently though. So much of it has to do with the species of fishes you are using. Cichlids can go through the full cycle of a tank, most of the time. Reason why I say that because that is what my friend breeds and owns. Even got them breeding afterwards and got beautiful fry out of them with no problems. But again, I would not try it or with any kind of species of fish like puffers. I know I sound like Im giving bad advice but want to let people know that I see it being done all the time without any problems but there's still a risk though. Like if the fish dies during the cycling period then you pretty much know why and how it died. An ammonia or nitrite poisoning would pretty much be the reason.

There are lots of fish that can survive the cycling process....the point is that it is still stressful and needlessly cruel to the fish used.

I myself used 'feeder' guppies to cycle my first tank when I started keeping fish....now I just use cycled filter media from an established tank.

These days there are easier, better methods available to properly cycle a tank before adding fish. IMO that's the bottom line.

Its gross that a fish store would sell ANY fish as a "starter fish" to cycle tanks with. Its like saying, Oh this fish cost less so its life is worth less. I just don't understand how anyone could do that knowing what it could do to any fish.

So cycling a tank with LR is so 10 years ago but they use GSPs to cycle a tank?

Pufferpunk wrote:So cycling a tank with LR is so 10 years ago but they use GSPs to cycle a tank?

Yeah, that didn't make sense to me either.

It was two different guys that I spoke to. The first guy, Bob told me that Brian uses this "TLC" product instead of cycling. Then later while speaking to Brian he told me that he, himself has used GSP's to cycle marine tanks with. If this "TLC" stuff is so great then why is he using fish to cycle with? Just an example of crappy people trying to sell me a crappy product!!!! I didn't fall for it of course...I'm gonna go ahead and be "behind with the times" and cycle with an ammonia source.

uhg, that whole story is just filled with icky badness!

i know you've (rightly) decided not to patronize this store again, but have you thought of talking to the owner/a manager there (in person mostly works much better than over the phone) just to see if s/he is equally ignorant/misinformed/full of pure hard-sell BS? 'cause if it's just one/a few out-of-it/heartless floor employees maybe the manager -or better: owner- would want to correct such ideas and future sales practices.

hope you find a better shop. i've yet to find a dedicated-fish-shop in my area other than salt-water-only (and only a few there, but they do exist).

Srkoe wrote:later while speaking to Brian he told me that he, himself has used GSP's to cycle marine tanks with.

well.... i suppose "using" a scaless and therefor very sensitive fish to "monitor" a tank could alert you to general things like "hey, if it's dead, my water's bad!", but so could any test kit or the seachem "ammo-alert!" in-tank-testing "badge".

the idea that he'd intentionally use any fish -let alone a very-water-sensitive-fish like any puffer- as "starter/throw-away fish" is awful! as you noted the very existence in the aquarium trade of "starter/throw-away-fish" is horrid. we now know better and even cheaper ways to cycle tanks...

i have no probs eating most fish, fishing and dispatching my own fish/shellfish dinner, or feeding live feeder gupps to my turts a few times a year for a treat, but intentionally subjecting any fish/critter to full body environmental poisoning and probably a drawn-out & painful demise as "tank cycling fish" is cruel and unnecessary. boo to that LFS dude!

The Bob dude is the owner!!!! The other guy has been there 10+years! I have better stores to go to only problem is they are both an hour away. I drive there about twice a month as it is to get live blackworms and other supplies. It would be so nice to have a store closer...the gas is killing me.

Srkoe wrote:The Bob dude is the owner!!!! The other guy has been there 10+years! I have better stores to go to only problem is they are both an hour away. I drive there about twice a month as it is to get live blackworms and other supplies. It would be so nice to have a store closer...the gas is killing me.

well, if "brian-guy" had been there a decade and Bob IS the owner, then this store likely can't be "saved" from the point of view of the in-tank critters there. how sucky!

about driving an hour for foods: do you raise snails and shrimp for your puffs? i highly recommend you do both. it's easy, i even now have baby ghost shrimp in my shrimp/snail 10g tank, w/cherry shrimp, pond, ramshorn, and apple (Pomacea diffusa) snails -first 2 egg clutches of the last now in observation for baby development -it's been 5 years since i bred them, so i'm so excited to see the hatching colors! -and feed the rest to puff, lol! the ghost shrimp are supposed to be pretty difficult to hatch-out due to their floating larval stage, but i now have them without any alterations to the general tank (i first noticed the babes 2 days ago which made me really happy!). i'd say the ones i see are at least 3/4 molts old, and this is the first time i've seen them at all, but i guess those larvae are making it! i started with 3 fully berried ghosts i moved from the puff tank to this one "just to see" and now ghost shrimp-lets! yea!

most non-live supplies can be easily -and cheaply- ordered online for delivery.

damn, sorry that LFS is so bad for fish, yuck!

p.s.

i don't buy RO water myself, but can't it be found really cheap at most larger grocery stores/sams/costcos etc.? sometimes in "fill your own gallon" type things? i know that all starbucks have an installed RO system for the water used in drinks (from when i worked there), i'd assume filling your own gallons from an in-store dispensary is akin to filling a cup from that system i remember.

also, i doubt that RO is chemically any better than steam-distilled when it comes to tank use. (but i use my tap water for tanks and run it through a PUR pitcher to drink....it's water from lake michigan, a bit hard, but seems chemically okay....)

When I started with fish, we knew nothing about cycling a tank, but killed very few if any fish. But we started small, with substrate (sand, dry, unwashed so far as I know), some plants, and a few baby fish, and used tank water from the store's tanks. Every couple of weeks we could add another fish or two. The total range of test kits were pH and "hardness", but tose were for advanced hobbyists.

BTW, a pale yellow to light amber tint to the water was considered "mature" water, and highly desirable. Filters were air-driven corner boxes with charcoal and angel's hair (spun glass fibers).

We survived it and so did most of the fish. Actually probably a higher percentage of the fish survived than they do today.

But eventually we learned better, and did better.