The Puffer Forum

I made this video at the most hated puffer supplier...wal-mart. Hypothetically speaking, could this hold up in court for animal abuse? All the GSPs and Figure 8's had Ich(white spots) or their fins were barely there. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv9naVRgsY8 .......let me know what you guys think.

Law usually differs from state to state defining animal cruelty, but the law in Texas states:

§42.092.Cruelty to Nonlivestock Animals
(7) “Necessary food, water, care, or shelter” includes food, water, care, or shelter provided to the extent required to maintain the animal in a state of good health.

"In a handful of states, the laws do exclude certain types of animals from the applicability of cruelty laws, such as fish, crustaceans, or invertebrates, but these exceptions are the exception rather than the rule."

http://www.animallaw.info/articles/ddustxcruelty.htm

It's extremely difficult to get sympathy from a jury for aquatic animals. So even once you make it to court, you'd have to remove the ideal of "just stupid fish" and the buyer loyalty Wal-Mart has created from the jury when it's decision time. On top of that, just to meet the requirements for what you were bringing them to court for would have to be extremely specific. For instance, the retailer or distributor? What state? Ultimately, what goal are you aiming for (Specifics!)?

From this point, you have a few options:
1) Look the other way.
2) Discuss the issue with the person in charge of ordering fish. Often enough, some may stop ordering GSP just because of this. I personally know of a few Wal-marts who have, at the very least, cut back on the amount they purchase and changed their diet to donated dried bloodworms. It's not much, but this changes quite a lot for the amount of effort it takes.
3) Spend years on a case that will most likely end in a poor compromise at best. I know this sounds terrible, but that's generally how it goes with aquatic life. Waterways get polluted all the time and unless it disrupts fishing businesses or causes unwanted damage to property, courts generally could care less.

I hate to say this but there are much worse cases. Many WM I find lots of dead puffers rolling around in the current. I see they do now carry F8s too. A fish that can live close to 20 years... But then so can GF & look how they're treated!

I realize there are much worse cases, it is like that with everything. Doesn't mean it is right. And I live in Pennsylvania and I am probably going to talk with the store manager about this. If this were a video of a cat or dog with its eyes popping out and limbs missing people would be enraged! But since this is just a "brainless" fish, no one cares. Well I will tell you what ,my GSP might as well be a dog because besides from swimming they act the exact same. Thanks for your help!

Peace

Walmart doesn't care, if they could sell kitty's and dogs they would keep them in cardboard boxes, just as long as they're getting your money. If they got fined it wouldn't change anything, it'd be like a small speeding ticket to them and the only way to stop them is if everyone would stop shopping at walmarts witch wouldn't happen.

HGI wrote:Walmart doesn't care, if they could sell kitty's and dogs they would keep them in cardboard boxes, just as long as they're getting your money. If they got fined it wouldn't change anything, it'd be like a small speeding ticket to them and the only way to stop them is if everyone would stop shopping at walmarts witch wouldn't happen.

sad but true......

Most animal abuse/neglect laws don't cover fish because they're not considered intelligent enough. While it's true that they're not always as smart as dogs or cats, they're still intelligent enough to feel pain, but their husbandry needs are so broadly misunderstood by the general public that even animal lovers benignly neglect them.

I just wanted to let you guys know that I am a walmart manager. In my store I have set up a donated tank from me for the gsps that we sell. Also some extra information for you guys is the walmart associates that deal with the fish actually arent trained by walmart. It is Apet that supplies the information for the associates so do not blame your local wal mart associate for not takin the prope care of the gsps it is not ALL their fault. Sorry im just tired of the bashing of wal mart because most pet mangers i have talked to in my region are doing the best they can with the info they learn from the fish supplier. The best way you can help is goto the store and talk to the pets manager with the right information the fish will be in better shape

and honestly wal mart cares about your opinion more then all of you think so please before bashing wal mart talk to your local stores pets manager and see how they can help. If nothing is done goto the store manager and see if he/she can do something. They will listen believe me the number one focus of any wal mart is the customer

If you sell something live, you need to be educated on it. This is entirely the responsibility of Wal-Mart. Apet supplies fish to many pet stores, yet Wal-Mart seems to be the only one with this horrible of a reputation with fish. Many pet stores may have teenagers selling the fish, but I can guarantee that the fish 99% of the time at other stores are housed better. Wal-Mart trains employees on every other topic, why would the pet supplies be any different? What Wal-Mart offers in terms of pet supplies is extremely low. From promoting corn based dog food to choke collars...

It would cost so little to print off new tags regarding the right information about the fish. At the very least, this should be done in EVERY Wal-Mart regardless of what else happens. There's no training involved and any midnight stocker could do it. I don't know about other Wal-Marts, but here the GSP's aren't given any consumable food. The closest thing to puffer food in the fish section is live ghost shrimp, which aren't for the GSP's to eat.

This responsibility lies much further up than just regional or district managers. While you could go around educating every regional manager on fish, the proper action needs to be taken at a higher level. So when people blame Wal-Mart for the lack of pet knowledge, this is exactly what they are upset about.

When people I know have tried to make a difference at Wal-Mart pet departments, there's been little to no change.

Wal-Mart needs to change how its managers are trained, and it needs to change its absurd policy on flushing live returns, and it needs to change pretty much everything about its fish section.

ETA: Incidentally, I hate Wal-Mart and all its practices with a deep and fiery passion, and I do not shop there when I can possibly avoid it. I'm really looking forward to moving where I don't have to resort to Wal-Mart for my basic needs.

Yes i understand what you are saying but wal-mart doesnt train the pets associates about the fish because Apet is the one we contract to supply and train pets associates about the tanks and fish. Apet is also the one who comes in and checks the tanks to make sure they are cleaned and properly maintained. They are the one telling the associates that GSPs are FW fish believe me I had a long talk with our Apet rep after I did more research on them. Im not sayin this takes all blame away from wal mart im just saying that before you blame only your local wal-mart try and discuss it with your wal marts pets manager or call the 1-800 number for wal mart and let them know your concerns about the puffers. This is a matter we have discussed in our area after customers came to us with the concerns of the GSPs and we fixed the problem and people are happy with how it has turned out. Im sorry im not high enough to get the ball rolling on more walmarts doing what we have done its just a massive company but like I said you would be surprised on how much you can chang at your walmart just by talkin to the manangers

and if there is no change in your wal mart after talkin with managers about your concerns then call the 1800 number they will listen to your concerns after that trust me no manager likes calls from home office

and for the food issue. any walmart can just store use some bloodworms for the GSP or order frozen food from Apet

The fact that it's a massive company is the root of the problem, IMO. With such a huge company, individual stores can't be held as accountable as small businesses - policies are national. It's beyond the control of people like you (the people that customers can actually talk to) to make a really fundamental difference. That's why I support small businesses.

That said, thank you for helping at your individual store. That was a very good thing you did. I wish everyone in Wal-Mart was like you. If everyone who worked for such big businesses was ethical, big businesses would be much better things.