The Puffer Forum

Help! I’m over a month into a fishless cycle, and I'm feeling inept. Before I started cycling, I read Rocker’s article in The Puffer Library and jmiller’s March 2010 post about his fishless cycle. My expectation was that I’d complete the cycle in two or three weeks; however, I seem to be stalled out, with ammonia/trite/trate levels consistent for the past 12 days. Wondering whether I need to adjust some parameter to help the cycle progress…

These are the facts:
- Pure ammonia from Ace Hardware – same stuff that jmiller cited in his March 2010 post.
- Tank is 36gUS Aqueon bowfront.
- Water is dechlorinized tap water, raised to 1.020 sg, with ammonia/trite/trate = 0/0/0. Didn’t check pH at first; in my other tanks, it’s consistently ~8.0 to 8.2.
- Filtration is from Aqueon HOB filter (rated 200 gph) + a cartridge that I pulled from existing puffer tank, and internal PennPlax Cascade filter (rated 175 gph) with included charcoal removed, leaving only sponge filter and some filter floss that I added.
- Heater is set to 80 degrees F, confirmed by a hanging stainless steel thermometer.
- Décor is 3 new Topfin resin mangrove roots, 1 Topfin resin “wood” piece from existing puffer tank, 2 Waterworld plastic plants + 1 from existing puffer tank, new marble-sized gravel covering about ¾ of the floor.
- Test kit is API liquid kit for saltwater.
- Have left the hood light on 24/7. (Is this a problem?)

Measurements:
Nov 20 through Nov 22 – Gradually added ammonia to raise tank to 4ppm. 0 nitrite or nitrate.
Nov 23 through Nov 26 – Added ammonia to maintain level at 4ppm. 0 nitrite or nitrate.
Nov 28 – Ammonia/Trite/Trate in ppm = 2/.25/0 Added about 1 cc ammonia.
Nov 29 – 8/.25/0 Thinking that I overdosed it… Added nothing.
Nov 30 through Dec 10 - 8/.25/0 Added nothing.
Dec 11 – 4/1.0./10 Added nothing.
Dec 12 through Dec 20 – 4/1.0/10 On 12/20, I added another 1cc of ammonia, trying to budge things.
Dec 21 through Dec 22 – 4/1.0/10 I also confirmed 1.020 sg, pH 8.2

Anyone recognize anything that might indicate why no progress in the past 12 days? Any suggestions as to what I can do to help things along?

what's the substrate?

1.020? I'm not a SW guy but don't you need live rock or live sand to seed the tank?

That bacteria has to come form somewhere, but not certain of the exact procedure.

When my FW tank stalled I think it was from the temp, but I also added a spoonful of "septo back" I wouldn't recommend adding that though in your situation. My tank took a LONG time to cycle.

Hey, J-P. Substrate is gravel. I seeded the tank with a used filter cartridge and some decor from the existing puffer tank (sg 1.018). Maybe not enough? Though the presence of a little nitrite and nitrate makes me think something's trying to happen...

I can't remember, I think mine took over the 6 week mark. There was a delay because the water was too cold.

Are you doing any water changes? That may take some of the bacteria out of the water column before it gets a change to establish itself in the nooks and crannies

The fact that you have a nitrate grading is good, unless that was from prior to you adding the salt. Over time you should see that ammonia level drop (if not adding more). Wait a day or 2 and see if that ammonia level drops. When I did the big cycle I only focused on 2 numbers, ammonia and nitrites (at first). Once Nitrates showed I only focused on Ammonia and Nitrates. When Nitrates hit 40 I looked at all three but mostly ignored ammonia. 48 hours later, big water change and add some sacrificial fish

I'm confused--if the tank is at SW, why aren't you cycling it as such, with live rock?

If you want to cycle a SW tank then uncured live rock would have been your best bet, ammonia would have spiked really fast and adding cured live rocks and live sand would have finished the cycle because of the seeded rock and sand. Thats how I done my SW tanks way back and most of my lfs's that carries SW tank do it that way too.

Hi, all.

J-P, I haven't done any water changes; I'm trying to follow the recommendations in Rocker's article and don't plan on a wc until after my ammon and 'trites zero out and my 'trates have jumped way up.

PP & Chris, the short answer to "why are you not using live rock....?" is "Because I'm a confused newb." LOL

I haven't been thinking of this as a sw tank; instead, thinking of it a high-end bw tank, using the same type of decor (fake mangrove roots, plastic plants, and gravel) as is in my puff's current 26gUS tank. Aside from needing a bigger tank, he seems to be happy and healthy with his existing environment. I bought the new 36gUS tank just to get him into a 30g+ while he's still young -- he's less than a year old and not yet 2". I didn't plan on redesigning his decor or substrate... just giving him the same type of decor & substrate with more tank volume and a slightly higher salinity (only .002 sg higher than his existing tank). So I haven't really "gone sw" in my brain. Don't yet have a skimmer -- I plan to get one once I can find paying employment again. 'Til I have the skimmer, I'll continue keeping up with his wcs and gravel vacuuming every few days.

I'd scrap the FW fishless cycling plan & go the SW route at that SG, with live rock & a skimmer. You can still use the fake mangrove if you want.

Fishless cycling is generally a FW technique, not high BW/SW. Under those conditions, live rock is a better cycling material than a conventional FW bacterial filter bed. That is in its own way a fishless cycling technique, but it is not initiated and established at all as is FW fishless cycling.

If you insist on a FW style fishless cycling, you need to do more than just check the nitrogen metabolites. For any extended fishless cycling, routine pH and KH checks are essential, and there is highly likely a need for water changes. You may want to review

library/water-filtration/fishlessconsiderations/

Rockers article is reasonable, but incomplete for FW.

Personally I don't consider conventional fishless cycling appropriate for SW tanks. Conventional filter-housed bacterial biofilters are very low on my list of appropriate operations methods for SW. I would not use it myself.

Thank you for pointing me back to that article, RTR. I did actually read it, too, before I started my process... though I completely missed that it addressed only the FW fishless cycling process. I didn't think to research SW fishless cycling as more appropriate for my circumstances, even with a high BW salinity.

And I thought that I was ok on the pH/kH issue, since my water is hard water out of the tap. I obviously need to understand the issues better and measure those values.

Thanks for the input, everyone. I'm bummed that I seemed to miss the mark by so much. All the more reason to cycle fishlessly, huh?

Yep, using live rock would do the job and take care of the rest of your problems. Btw, I see you are a cichlid hobbyist too. I just noticed it.

FW Fishless cycling is hard on water parameters. as water partials during fishless tend to involve large pH swings, that alone can be hard on the developing bacteria. The common bacteria in FW (different than those for SW/high BW) do best under alkaline conditions. Acid pH levels slow growth markedly, and the lower the pH, the slower the growth. below pH 6.0, grow pretty nearly arrests. When the growth is small, the cycle obviously stalls. Build-up of metabolites also inhibits nitrification colony development. A long ammonia phase, or too high ammonia levels can either or both suppress nitrite oxidation bacteria markedly and even slow the ammonia oxidizers. If you have an extended cycle (3 weeks or more), you need to check and record all available parameters to spot what is going wrong. If the process does not complete in 2-3 weeks, it can collapse entirely.

Only a few decades ago, we did do processes comparable to fishless for SW, but they were not easy hobby-level processes. Those of us with lab-access and the knowledge and skills needed were a favored group then - otherwise you conditioned new filters on existing tanks only. We did not have access to the raw materials, equipment, or knowledge that we have today. SW was for techies and divers only. I literally did not know any SW hobbyists who were not divers, and most were scientists as well. It was a much smaller thing back then.

Now the world is much more sophisticated. Decent off-the-shelf equipment and tanked stock is not universal, but relatively accessible. There is a good bit of junk equipment and mythology, but that is almost universal in hobbies.

RTR wrote:SW was for techies and divers only. I literally did not know any SW hobbyists who were not divers, and most were scientists as well.

At the moment, I feel like I have a better handle on diving than I do on aquarium-keeping, at least as far as fishless cycling goes.

Just did a great dive in South FL last weekend; keep meaning to write up a report of the puffers and puff-relatives that I saw. Alas, I have put off too many holiday preparations and still have lots to do, so that'll have to wait.

Thanks again for all of the support and info. Hope you all have a great holiday!

Do you have any questions on how to cycle the tank with live rock?

PP, I don't know enough yet to formulate specific questions! Is there an overview article (or many?) that you recommend? Thanks for asking!