The Puffer Forum

Hard numbers:
PH between 7.5 and 8
N02- less than .3mg/l
NH3/NH4+ .25mg/l or less
Hardness, can't find my scale card but it should be fine and certainly shouldn't have changed substantially recently.
Salinity 1.015

Tank has been cycled for more than 2 months now. It was cycled fish in (I know, terrible with puffers, but I was experienced with much more hardy fish before, I really am regretful about this but he came through fine) and has been stable for over two months, very good levels, likely due to heavy over-filtering.

Aquarium has been set up the same period of time.

Regular 25-50% water changes, every 2-3 days.

I have made no changes to the tank in the last week or two apart from introducing the freeze dried krill (looking for something with a shell to help keep his teeth in check) which he seemed to enjoy a lot, until he stopped eating mo

Situation:

I've got a juvenile GSP, right around 2.5-3", alone in a 10 gallon tank (I'll move him to something larger as he ages and grows). His name is Rasputin (since he is so vicious) and has been extremely active over the last couple of months since I bought him. He will greet us when we come home much like a dog, beg for food regularly, though we feed him twice a day consistently. My wife and I really love him. I feed him TetraFin crisps, pieces of Tetra JumboKrill freeze dried shrimp, and thaw bloodworms for special treats.

His tank is fully cycled, levels are all good, I do a 25-50% water change every couple of days, I use a gravel vac to get any uneaten food out, I don't over-feed, I keep him in ~1.015 salinity with sea salt mix, not "aquarium" salt, or brackish conditions as I understand should be best for him at this stage in his life. His tank is heavily over-filtered -- I have a Penguin BIO-Wheel 350 on a ten gallon tank.

He barely tries to swim compared with how he did -- just sort of floats around near the bottom of the tank, sometimes goes up to the top and looks like he's searching for food, but will ignore it or barely take any if I try to feed him. Before he almost "buzzed" around the tank. Constantly. Now he spends a lot of time sitting in the little "cave" I built for him with a piece of slate, or just on the bottom in one corner of the tank.

Earlier tonight he got caught in the filter intake for the first time ever, and he was a lot smaller when we got him, he just... wasn't trying. Luckily I saw him and turned it off. He just wandered back down to the bottom.

The other day we saw something kind of hanging out of his gills, a red tubular thing that looks like a stringier blood worm. I just assumed he had some feces stuck on him or something, but we saw something similar yesterday. Could he have some kind of parasite? If so what, and how should I treat it? Everything I read about parasite treatment terrifies me -- most sites say that it's all pretty much poison, several have said they lost more fish to parasite treatments than anything else... Again, I love this fish. I do not want to risk killing him.

I'm extremely worried, as is my wife. What should we do?

UPDATE:

Did another 50% water change tonight since he was acting strange still. Checked levels again and everything is very low, no issues. He is hanging out behind the lip of the filter, between it and the back of the tank, very near to the top. His fins are going slowly but he is very lethargic and does not seem to want to leave that area. I am extremely concerned since from my limited experience fish hanging out at the very top of the tank is a bad sign. He is not gulping or gasping for air -- as I already said, the tank is heavily over-filtered which adds a lot of oxygen to the water from turbulence and I also have a 100 gallon rated air pump and large airstone in the tank, so it doesn't seem to be oxygen starvation.

EDIT:

After reading "help me help abe" here I am very scared this may be some kind of poisoning. I put a slate tile in the tank about a month ago to create a "cave" for him to rest and hide in, since I read they like places like that. He took to it immediately and did not show any signs of strange behavior until the last few days, so I don't know if this is the same situation as in that thread, but I am afraid he may have somehow been poisoned by the slate I put it or something on it.

If your showing nitrite, Your tank is not cycled. Your water parameters should be Nitrate<10
Nitrite=0
Ammonia=0
Ph swings are not good can you test more accurately??
He really needs 30g at any age....get him a new tank soon...your biofilter cant keep up.

Check the slate tile. IMO id remove it. Only use natural rocks.

What are the water parameters now?
if your showing any ammonia or nitrite do an immediate WC and continue to do it until it goes back down to zero. Ammonia and nitrite is extremely toxic. This is whats causing his issues. He really needs a larger tank asap IMO. Try Craigslist for tanks. They usually go for around a $1 a gallon. If you can spring for something larger than a 30g it would be best. But 30g minimum no exceptions, even at 1" big. Mainly bc they are messy and produce lots of waste( poop/pee) etc. Hope this helps. Try having a read of the emergency cycle article....in the library I believe...

A couple of things. First of all, as SammyDee says, your GSP needs a bigger tank now. He may seem small and you think he'd be okay in a 10-gallon, but trust me, he needs that bigger tank.
I'd also remove the slate, especially if you think he's started acting strangely since it was put in. Did you not clean it well enough, and did you use aquarium-safe silicone to put it together?
Another thing -- I'd stop feeding him twice a day. He doesn't need to eat that often. Should just be once a day. I also think you should be feeding him more substantial foods. TetraFin crisps sounds like a flake food to me, and puffers don't generally eat flake food, nor does it have enough nutrition for a puffer. I'm not a big fan of freeze-dried foods either. I prefer fresh or frozen.
I would try offering him some pieces of raw shell-on shrimp (I buy the jumbo shrimp and cut it up), also mussels are good too (my GSP love them), cockles and snails often for his teeth. Also, with bloodworm it's better if you can soak it in a liquid vitamin solution. I actually put my bloodworm into a dish (after it's been rinsed) and then I pour the vitamin liquid over the bloodworm and allow it to sit overnight in the refrigerator. It will give your little guy some extra vitamins that he really needs.
I'm also wondering if your tank doesn't have issues with cycling. Ideally you want zero ammonia and zero nitrites. How quickly did you add the salt to your tank? If you added it too soon, then you've killed off any beneficial bacteria that you might have had in the filter. Always best to get the tank completely cycled before adding any salt, it's just better that way. And just to be sure, you want to use marine salt, not aquarium salt to make the tank brackish. (You'd be surprised how many people don't use the right thing).
And again I think it would do a world of good to get your little guy out of the 10-gallon and into a 30-gallon tank.

Retested levels three times and got 0 ammonia and <.3mg/l nitrates (lowest my kit can test for). I must've misread the chart before, because I've done nothing different to the tank. BIO filter should be able to keep up even with this messy fish, since it is a 75 gallon rated filter (BIO-Wheel 350) on a 10 gallon tank. Other ideas besides bad cycling? Tank seems to be fully cycled and all levels are good. I didn't mean pH fluctuates before, I mean it's between 7.5 and 8 and the scale I'm using isn't more precise than that, but the color is consistent there. I do nothing to alter pH apart from add the marine salt which I understand raises it some naturally.

I took the slate out, just in case. I didn't use any silicon, just set it over a depression in the rocks at the bottom of the tank so he had a "cave" to go in, since I read they like places like that to hide and sleep. He seemed to like it. I'll have to find something else to make another for him.

Plain slate should pose not problems. I don't care if your filter is rated for 1000g, it is like sweeping dirt under the rug. Your puffer needs more dilution!

Read my sig:

Coconut shells cut in half make good "caves", and so does terracotta pots turned upside down with a rock under the lip to raise it up a bit so the puffer can get under. My puffers loved it when I had them in the tank (but I changed things around and moved them out ... probably shouldn't have thinking in retrospect).

And in regards to the size of your tank, you can have a fantastically huge filter on a 10-gallon, but at the end of the day, you still only have your puffer in a small 10-gallon tank. Puffers can get stunted very quickly if they are kept in tanks that are too small, and unfortunately you won't notice until it's too late.

silent-circuit wrote:Retested levels three times and got 0 ammonia and <.3mg/l nitrates (lowest my kit can test for).

You're going to need to find a kit that can read 0. The difference between 0 and .3 is life and death.

Are you still seeing a red stringy thing coming from the gills? Gill flukes??

purplecandle wrote:Are you still seeing a red stringy thing coming from the gills? Gill flukes??

Everything I've read says gill flukes are too small to be seen with the naked eye, and the things I saw were about the size of blood worms. I haven't seen any last night or today, just one the day before. I'm starting to think it was just some debris stuck on him, but I'm not certain.

I did a large water change last night after taking the slate out (though considering how long it was in there without issues I doubt that was the cause) and he seems to be doing better today, though not "back to himself" just yet.

Okay, I'm seeing the red string-like things coming out of one gill again. They are about 1/3rd the thickness of a bloodworm, bright red, maybe two to three cm long. Are these parasites? If so what kind, and how should I treat them? I've been looking for pictures online and found nothing that looks anything like them. The nearest I can think of would be some kind of worm, but all the pictures of worm infestation show bumps under the skin, of which there are none on my fish.

These are not anchor worms, as they do not have the "V" shaped end of the body, and I don't think they're gill flukes since everything I've read suggests gill flukes are too small to be seen by the naked eye, and certainly don't grow to be this big. Would there be any harm in treating him for flukes regardless? Or is fluke treatment, like most medicines from what I've read, really just poison. I really love this fish and want to avoid any unnecessary risks.

I'm not sure exactly what these are, but we had a GSP with the same infection and showed the same symptoms. Personally I would try treating with Discus Wormer Plus or PraziPro. Both of these medications are for parasites in general. If he is still eating I'd soak the food as well as add the dosage to the tank. With Wormer Plus I know it is safe up to three times the dosage for puffers when used in the tank.

Puffers are so susceptible to poor water quality that a 10g tank can easily get a little too high very quickly, especially with a fish as messy as a GSP. If you can I'd do an emergency cycling on a larger tank (stalk Craig's List they have tons of deals) and move him over and continue treating for parasites. I hope you have a happy outcome, but be prepared for the worst. We lost our GSP in an agonizingly slow torturous process. He would show signs of improvement, then be so lethargic I honestly thought he was dead at least three times (the gill movement was so minimal (if there was any) I couldn't detect it). This went on for about a week and a half before we finally put him down. I really wish you the best and hope you have a happy ending.

I started with Jungle brand "Tank Buddies" anti-parasite tablets, which were all I could get my hands on at this time of night around here, though the active ingredient list looks good to me and includes Praziquantel. Put the first tab in an hour or two ago and he is still looking fine, no adverse affects. A mass of red stuff the color of the "strings" but more substantial started coming out of his one gill (the other is unaffected as always) maybe 20, 30 minutes after I put the tab in, and is still hanging there last I checked. He doesn't seem to care about it, and seems to be doing a little better in general.

The tablet packaging says to wait 48 hours, do a 25% partial water change, and reapply. I'll be following that schedule (and further applications at 48 hour intervals, to make sure I get all the worms so the eggs don't survive) unless someone experienced here recommends against it, or makes alternative suggestions.

I also found a 30 gallon hex tank locally for a very reasonable price I hope to go look at tomorrow, assuming it's still for sale. If my current filter won't fit on it I guess that'll be an excuse to set up a small sump / wet-dry filter like I've been meaning to.

Wow, that was quick! Sounds like the med is working. Try to vacuum up those worms if you can.

The worms, if that's what they are (it does look like a mass of worms) are still very much connected to him and close to his body, so sadly I can't get them out of there as he will shy away from my hand and the vac, and I don't want to stress him any more than the whole thing already is.

From what I am reading about worm infestations and gill flukes, which are the nearest thing I've seen to whatever this is in my searching, the lifecycle includes a fairly long period where the eggs are unhatched and that's part of what makes getting rid of them so difficult. Various forums and sites also suggest the eggs may work their way down in to the gravel, so I should remove the gravel while using the medication.

Two questions here -- should I do this? Shouldn't the medication get down in to the gravel regardless? Also, if I do take the gravel out, will it be safe to put it back in in a week or two after this is definitely dealt with, or could there still be some live eggs on it? Should I bleach and thoroughly rinse it before returning it to the tank or something? I'd rather not throw it all away if it can be avoided, but the fish is much more important to me than $30 or so in rocks.