The Puffer Forum

I ordered a "true red eye puffer" from aquariumfish.net, thinking it is an irrubesco. A day later it arrived, but it turned out to be a a female lorteti, which is great because either puffers are great

She's in a 10 gal by herself, until I can afford a 20gallon set up. She's only about 1" so hopefully it will be ok for now. Ammonia and Nitrite are 0 and Nitrate is 10. I will be changing 25% water twice a week. It is heavily planted w/ fake plants and she has been exploring her new home.

I really want to keep her for a long time, my first puffers were 3DP's and they lasted about 2 yrs until they all died of IPs

I want to deworm her as a preventative, but I can't find Gel-tek anywhere. I used the Parasite Clear from Jungle to treat my DPs last time, but didn't work (soaked the food and treated the water). I was wondering if I can use Prazi-pro, using the same method? Are there other products I can use?

Right now I'm feeding her ghost shrimps, frozen bloodworms, blackworms and snails. If there's anything else I should feed her, feel free to suggest some food.

Lastly, Once I get a bigger tank, will I be able to get a tank mate?, maybe an algae eater or a bottomfeeder? Maybe otos? kuhli loaches? a vampire shrimp?

Anything else I should know about a lorteti?

Sorry I can't help you in regards to worming treatments because I'm in the UK, however, I have irrubesco, lorteti, salivator and borneensis puffers, and I'm happy to say that mine have done very well with tankmates. I've got corydoras', Rasboras, some sort of gobies (not BB) and I've not seen any problems at all. So I don't see any reason that you can't get her a tankmate.

Hello,

Almost all 'died from internal parasite" judgements are rubbish. So let's deal with this first of all. Virtually all wild-caught fish have internal parasites of some sort, and even among some groups of farmed fish they are extremely common (the classic example is Hexamita in farmed Cichlidae). Indeed, you probably have a few internal parasites as well. What causes premature death can be a variety of things, but internal parasites are most likely to cause problems if the fish has a suppressed immune system. In the case of Hexamita for example, high levels of nitrate and a diet low in vitamin C both seem to be key triggering factors.

So, with that said, there's no point pro-actively treating fish "just in case", any more than your own doctor wouldn't deworm you or prescribe antibiotics unless he/she had a good reason to suspect intestinal worms or a bacterial infection.

Pufferfish are extremely hardy and adaptable fish. Water chemistry is of almost no importance to them, and because freshwater pufferfish tolerate exposure to brackish water for long periods, they can be easily treated for things like whitespot and velvet without recourse to toxic medications (typically copper and formalin-based potions). They rarely die prematurely unless maintained under chronically poor conditions. It's almost always best to concentrate on providing good water quality and a varied diet, and only treating a pufferfish if you've got good reason to suspect disease.

Carinotetraodon lorteti is a very robust species that has been in the trade for decades. Males are aggressive, and both sexes can be nippy, and in my experience, they're less peaceful than Carinotetraodon irrubesco. Since the two species are commonly muddled up by retailers, do check which one you've got; females are very similar, but whereas female Carinotetraodon irrubesco have sub-parallel short brown squiggles on their bellies, female Carinotetraodon lorteti generally lack these markings.

Bloodworms are somewhat poor nutritionally, and there's some suggestion that used to excess they can cause health problems. That said, my fish love them, and I use them all the time. But I'm very careful to alternate them with other foods, particularly seafood from the grocery store. Shrimp, squid, prawn, and small pieces of tilapia fillet all go down well. Live earthworms are an excellent supplement and very nutritious.

Cheers, Neale

schismy007 wrote:Sorry I can't help you in regards to worming treatments because I'm in the UK, however, I have irrubesco, lorteti, salivator and borneensis puffers, and I'm happy to say that mine have done very well with tankmates. I've got corydoras', Rasboras, some sort of gobies (not BB) and I've not seen any problems at all. So I don't see any reason that you can't get her a tankmate.

O cool, what size tank are they all in? Hopefully mine won't mind having some tank mates at all.

Thanks Neale for the extra info, I guess I'm just a bit paranoid since all my DPs died of IPs.

I'm pretty sure I have a lorteti, i found out through this board by looking at pictures of other lortetis.

Earthworms are a bit too icky for me and I don't even know where to get them, would you say black worms/snails/ghost shrimps would suffice as a nutritious diet? With occasional treats of course....like bloodworms or brine shrimps

Shrouded wrote: I guess I'm just a bit paranoid since all my DPs died of IPs.

On what basis do you make this assumption? This is my point: unless you're a vet or a microbiologist, there's no way you could distinguish internal parasites from, say, a bacterial infection brought about by a compromised immune system. Chronic malnutrition could cause a similar set of symptoms too, including things like abdominal swelling.

Shrouded wrote: Earthworms are a bit too icky for me and I don't even know where to get them, would you say black worms/snails/ghost shrimps would suffice as a nutritious diet? With occasional treats of course....like bloodworms or brine shrimps

Black worms are mosquito larvae of some type, and no better or worse than bloodworms. Shrimps are okay, but the contain a lot of thiaminase, so you need to compensate for that with something rich in vitamin B1.

Cheers, Neale

Shrouded wrote:

schismy007 wrote:Sorry I can't help you in regards to worming treatments because I'm in the UK, however, I have irrubesco, lorteti, salivator and borneensis puffers, and I'm happy to say that mine have done very well with tankmates. I've got corydoras', Rasboras, some sort of gobies (not BB) and I've not seen any problems at all. So I don't see any reason that you can't get her a tankmate.

O cool, what size tank are they all in? Hopefully mine won't mind having some tank mates at all.

They are in a 4-foot tank, very heavily planted.

nmonks wrote:

Shrouded wrote: I guess I'm just a bit paranoid since all my DPs died of IPs.

On what basis do you make this assumption? This is my point: unless you're a vet or a microbiologist, there's no way you could distinguish internal parasites from, say, a bacterial infection brought about by a compromised immune system. Chronic malnutrition could cause a similar set of symptoms too, including things like abdominal swelling.

Shrouded wrote: Earthworms are a bit too icky for me and I don't even know where to get them, would you say black worms/snails/ghost shrimps would suffice as a nutritious diet? With occasional treats of course....like bloodworms or brine shrimps

Black worms are mosquito larvae of some type, and no better or worse than bloodworms. Shrimps are okay, but the contain a lot of thiaminase, so you need to compensate for that with something rich in vitamin B1.

Cheers, Neale

Well they were all pooping out clear stringy poop, and were paper thin when they all died, unless these are also symptoms of other bacterial infections, I don't know what else to call them other than IPs. I'm not saying I'm an expert, but I did research the hospital board in dwarfpuffers.com and even here and found similar symptoms that my puffers have that have been cured by medications such as Gel-tek and Parasite Clear. I thought one was cured of its IPs but became thin again after a few months and died later.
I get your point, I'm not assuming per say...i guess I'm just saying they most likely died from it. I never excluded the fact that they might have died of other causes, but through my research and through other board members help, this is what I believe they died from.....

Thanks Neale good thing she likes to eat ghost shrimps, maybe i'll gut load them with food rich w/ vitaminB1

White, stringy faeces imply excessive mucous production by the gut. This can indeed be a sign of irritation by endoparasites.

The classic example of this is a Hexamita of the type seen in things like cichlids. Since Hexamita spp. are protozoans, you need to use a medication that specifically targets them, for example metronidazole. The usual antibacterials and antibiotics will have no effect at all.

Now, the thing with Hexamita is that it is likely very common. Some experts have argued that it is ubiquitous, and the difference between a healthy host and a sick host isn't the presence of the parasite, but rather its ability to keep them in check. I have an article on the topic over at Fish Channel that some might find informative, but in a nutshell, diet and water quality seem to be consistent triggers.

Cheers, Neae

It makes sense that IP only become a problem if the fish is sick in some other way. If their immunity is lowered in some other way (stress/poor water quality etc) I guess this would allow parasites to "take hold". To an extent, it is the same with dogs & cats - they all have IP, but really they are only a problem in the very young, elderly, or animals which are sick for another reason. In fact we generally worm our pets, to protect ourselves from the worms that can be passed on to us, not to benefit the animal.
So maybe before we jump to the conclusion of IP, being the cause of the problem in our Puffs, we should look at other factors first.
Thanks Neale, your post made alot of sense!

Well hopefully my red eye won't get ill. I'll be watching the water quality and her diet.

I'm looking at my bloodworm package by Hikari. It's enriched with multivitamins including thiamine mononitrate. I was wondering if Vitamin B1(thiamine) and thiamine mononitrate are the same?

Yes; this is the standard form of thiamine added to foodstuffs, e.g., flour.

Cheers, Neale

Shrouded wrote:I was wondering if Vitamin B1(thiamine) and thiamine mononitrate are the same?