The Puffer Forum

Ok, here's the story. My boyfriend and I, we're new to freshwater tanks (I'm studying marine biology, but that has some huge differences from freshwater and although I've kept tanks of horseshoe crabs alive, I didn't know the first thing about keeping a freshwater tank). We're both intelligent people, and we did our research. From the moment we saw the GSP in the pet store, we asked about him and the first thing the lady told us was that they weren't the best "beginner fish" and not to get one if our tank wasn't fully cycled. We went home (pufferless) and set up a 20g tank with a filter, a heater, plenty of substrate (I think it's a little too much substrate, as it's about an inch deep), a big log decoration with plenty of hiding places, and three live plants. We did lots of research on cycling tanks, lots of research on the GSPs, and on what could live with them. Here's where you are all going to shake your head at the newbies: instead of following the instructions on this site about cycling our tank with ammonia (which we'd read), we found out about BioZyme, and spoke to three different people that said it worked great and said it should be good in two days. We added this as the instructions said for about a week (we didn't trust only two days). Ammonia levels, Nitrite levels, and Nitrate levels all remained at zero, so we thought (wrongly, we now realize) that we were good to go. We got one very healthy looking GSP, a red-tailed "shark", and a clown pleco, and decided to leave it at that since it is only a 20g tank. We slowly turned the water brackish (about 1.005 on the hydrometer). GSP (Buzz) seemed happy as ever, Scorch (our shark) liked to hide out in the log, but the pleco we weren't sure about. He tended to hide out, and occasionally would sit on the half of an alga tab but not appear to eat it. I think he hid from Buzz, although if Buzz was bullying him I think it was unintentional.

The fish get fed once a day, with one off-day a week. Buzz eats pretty much everything he sees, but we (purposefully) feed him frozen brine shrimp, occasionally frozen blood worms (Buzz is a juvenile puffer, only about an inch long; we've read young ones like blood worms, but given them too often will cause bowel obstruction), and small snails more often than necessary just because we enjoy watching him eat them (a few times a week). The first night we fed him too much and his tummy got huge (and I freaked out!), but since then I think we've fed him the right amount. We're planning on adding more variety to his diet; any advice on what worked best for you would help.

They all did well for the first four days, and then the trouble began: the ammonia level started to rise. We responded by doing 25% water changes every day, vacuuming the gravel and everything. After about 3 days of not having seen the pleco, we finally found him dead on the bottom of the tank behind the log where we couldn't see him. He was all white, and had some evidence of nipped fins, and we thought this had been our ammonia issue (as it appeared he'd been dead for a while). I don't know whether he died from Buzz nipping him, from the brackish conditions, or from the ammonia. Either way we felt horrible.

Now we are to the point where every night we check ammonia and it's at 1, we do a 25% and sometimes 50% water change, and the next night it's back up to 1. We are agonized because we think it's really unfair to our fish to have been put in an uncycled tank, even though we had good intentions. Scorch has some evidence of ammonia poisoning, and we've been doing all we can to keep the ammonia down, so we don't know what to do until our tank gets cycled! Last night we decided to set up an emergency "tank," which is actually only a storage tub. I really wanted to let it leech for a few days before we put the fish in, but we decided that the ammonia was the more imminent danger. We've put the filter, the heater, and the light on that; cut the lid in half so it still has a lid. I'm not sure this was a good option, as Scorch hasn't started looking better yet, and Buzz has been acting strangely. We put new water in there (we always use API Stress Coat to dechlorinate the tap water, and Petco marine salt (although next time I'd like to buy Instant Ocean)). We are cognizant of temperature before we add it.

I got up this morning and Buzz was stationary, which is highly unusual for him. He also ignored the snail the BF tried to give him this morning, and ate the one I gave him a little later without his usual enthusiasm. His tail was also kept bent to one side or the other. As all this is very unlike him, I was very concerned and have since been researching this all morning, with little evidence of this happening to others. The light has now turned on at its usual time, and when I just went to check on him he is more active than he was, and I'm a little relieved. Scorch, however, isn't looking any better. Slightly red gills, pale tail fin, and very inactive. I'd add Melafix, but I don't think that would help with ammonia poisoning, right?

My question now is, what would you recommend?? We're doing everything we can to take care of these fish, and we really don't want them to die. I've just found the Emergency Tank Cycling article on this site, and plan to go to our local (not chain) petstore and getting some used media from a healthy tank to help jump-start the bacteria growth. Should we do another big water change, add the media from the petstore, and put our fish back into the tank? Should we leave the fish in our emergency tank until our tank has been cycled properly? Any other advice?

OK, the biggest problem, obviously, is that you have an uncycled tank and need to know what to do. Going to the LFS to get used filter media is the correct thing to do in this situation. The only problem I can foresee is the difference in SG between the LFS tanks and your own. The bacteria that breaks down ammonia can only tolerate SG increases or decreases of .002 in any one change or in other words, once a week. If the LFS media is from FW, you need to get your tank back to FW or all the bacteria on the new media will die and cause you further ammonia problems, or find out what SG they are at and try to match it. That should really help your issues. If you can't get media from the LFS, Tetra SafeStart (used to be Bio Spira FW) is the only product that contains real nitrifying bacteria, and that is hit and miss on it's effectiveness since Tetra bought it. If you can get a hold of this, add it directly to your filter media on the incoming flow side.

A few other things that need mention is that the Redtail Shark is not a brackish fish. They can handle slight, and I mean slight, amounts of salt but not where you are at right now. The conditions will kill him. Also You tank is too small (I hate telling people this part) and I feel this is contributing to the rapid ammonia climb. Puffers are scaleless fish and are very sensitive to biological waste and their own hormones. They are very messy fish and produce a huge bioload and should be in a 30 gallon tank alone to dilute these wastes out. Look on CraigsList for cheap tanks.

So you think I need to get the tank back to FW, add the pet store media, in the meantime take the emergency tank back to FW slowly, and then once they are both at FW and media has been added to the permanent tank, move the fish back? I didn't know the bacteria could only handle the SG change once a week; we were under the impression .002 a day both for the fish and bacteria. Basically though, I'm asking what to do with the fish in the meantime; keep them in the emergency tank, or put them in the permanent tank while it is cycling and keep up with the daily water changes until the ammonia is under control? Which do you think would be better and why? Also, once we put the media in, do you have any idea how long it will take to cycle since the process should have at least started?

Yeah, we knew the redtail was FW, but we were hoping he could stand slightly salty water, and the pet store guy had said they should be able to tolerate it. He has so far; are you saying his symptoms are from the salt and not from the ammonia? Fish that aren't tolerant of estuarine conditions generally die much sooner in the wrong water (as their cells explode or shrivel), don't they? Poor guy.

Has everyone had good experiences buying tanks on Craigslist? I know GSPs are messy and produce large amounts of waste which they are not very tolerant of, but he's a young one with only one other fish in the tank right now, so we figured 20g is big enough for the time being, and we had always planned on doing a water change once a week anyway. I think the ammonia levels are a result of an incompletely cycled tank.
A bigger tank can be acquired later, but my immediate concern is getting the current tank cycled and keeping my fish alive in the process.

Thanks for the advice, Dadof4!

How big is your hospital tank, and is that cycled at all? Or are both your tanks uncycled?

You need to get your main tank back to freshwater, and once you've got the filter media from the LFS, if it's good and mature media, your tank will effectively be "cycled" since there should be beneficial bacteria in the media, and that's what takes care of the ammonia and nitrites. If you can get that mature filter media ASAP, then your fish will be much better off, but if you can't get it immediately, then I'd say for you to do 50% water changes daily until you can get the filter media.
As for your black shark .... do the right thing and either keep him in a totally freshwater tank, or take him back to the LFS, it's unfair to force him to live in conditions that he was not intended for.

If I can just make one more comment .... always take any information that you get from any LFS with a grain of salt. There are some good ones, but I'd say that most aren't very well informed and most employ people that have little or no knowledge about what they selling.

Good luck with your GSP.

Yes, I think you need to take your tank back to FW for now just because the LFS used media is more than likely going to come from a FW tank. You can drip acclimate the GSP back to FW is an hour or two instead of bringing the emergency tank back to FW. The Puffer will be able to handle the SG shift much better and easier than the filter bacteria. When you add the used media, you need to immediately add the puffer so that the bacteria has an ammonia source immediately. You may go through a mini cycle, but nothing like you would cycling from scratch, so watch your water parameters very closely and do water changes accordingly.

When you raise your SG you should only raise it by .002 per week at a maximum, or inversely, decrease it by .002 per week. This gives the bacteria a slower adjustment to the osmotic differences and you lose fewer cells to rapid fluid shift.

Nothinbutrouble99 wrote:Yeah, we knew the redtail was FW, but we were hoping he could stand slightly salty water, and the pet store guy had said they should be able to tolerate it. He has so far; are you saying his symptoms are from the salt and not from the ammonia? Fish that aren't tolerant of estuarine conditions generally die much sooner in the wrong water (as their cells explode or shrivel), don't they? Poor guy.

What you are seeing is a combination of both salt and ammonia. Some fish tolerate the slight increase in salt longer than others and show the effects differently. Even so, if he would be able to handle the rise in SG, you would run in to problems in the long run with him in that tank. The GPS will eventually require high brackish (1.015) to marine conditions very soon, quite a few people here keep their young GSP's in full marine conditions with great success, actually better than in brackish, and the redtail can't handle that. Another problem is the immune system of the redtail will be compromised due to his intolerance of the SG and he will start to develop all sorts of tumors and will be more susceptible to disease. If you can, return him to the LFS for credit, it may come in handy later.

Quite a few people here use Craigs list to buy tanks and used equipment without problems. I currently have 9 tanks running in my house and all but 2 have come from Craigs list, I just bought a 250 gallon for a pittance about two weeks ago. The 20 gallon will not be enough for a single GSP let alone a tank mate. I understand your immediate concern is getting the tank cycled and safe (and you are correct, this is your first priority!) but size is going to be a hindrance in accomplishing this. The ammonia will build up very quickly, possibly too quickly for the puffer to be safe and healthy, also you will have a high build up of nitrates because of the lack of dilutional area once the tank is cycled. You also have to look at the stunting issue. This happens quick when you expose a young scaleless fish to tight quarters. Here's a great thread on the subject viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4030

All In all, I feel you are on the right track though! Get the tank cycled with the used media and then upgrade the tank as soon as you can.

Bed news; I came back to find the redtail had died. We've definitely learned not to trust the pet store people by now (although they'd all said they had lots of aquarium-keeping experience). I guess I'll get the advice from you people with all the puffer experience now. And now I feel altogether horrible for doing that to Scorch.

So from what we've read, everything says GSPs like slightly brackish conditions, but can live in freshwater conditions (just not as happily). You're saying they like full marine environments?? I'll be very impressed if that's the case; there are very few organisms that can live in both ends of the spectrum. So instead of bothering with the pet store people, I'll just ask you all; what should we put in the tank with him if we went to a 30g tank? What fish have lived successfully with your GSPs? How many fish total (I'm assuming very few)? If what you are saying about him needing full marine conditions, should we just wait until the tank has been switched to marine and get marine fish? Also, shouldn't we go ahead and drip-acclimate puffer to marine conditions and get media from the marine tanks at the pet store, or is there too much risk of spreading diseases with that? (Also, I'm not going to buy anymore fish until my tank is cycled--promise!)

Thank you both for your advice--and the slap on the wrist. I wish we'd asked you all sooner; we might have spared Scorch.

Schismy007: the emergency tank has ~18g in it right now; it is not cycled either. I swear we ONLY did it because we could do complete water changes with that while our other tank cycled (as we thought having ammonia in it already would mean it would start cycling faster if it was allowed to spike as we added ammonia ourselves), not because we thought it would be an answer to ammonia. We were just trying to spare our fish from the ammonia at that point, since the redtail already looked pretty bad. It was a move of pure desperation. Once we get a 30g we will have to make the 20g into the hospital tank. We should still keep some fish in the hospital tank though, to keep everything cycling, correct?

Also, GSP is not showing any discoloration. He seems adorably oblivious to all the trouble. Does this mean he is not yet too stressed, or do they just not always fade/bellies turn black when they are stressed? He's back to his usual active self, unlike early this morning. He may just not have appreciated the switch to the emergency tank.

I'm going to start by saying WOW. You are so much better-informed than I expected. You have your test kits, you found the emergency cycling article on your own - great job.

Well, the good news is that now your GSP's tank is big enough for the time being, since the shark is gone. Now you just have to work on establishing the bacteria. Keep up with the water changes, bring it down to FW, and get the filter media.

There is a species profile in the PufferPedia (Learn tab at the top of the page) that has a GSP profile. You'll see that it actually prefers high-end brackish water. Until recently, it was debated whether or not marine conditions were better for adults. Then they finally figured out that GSPs only bred in marine water; ergo, that's their natural conditions and the ideal. As brackish fish, they can *tolerate* a wide range of salinities, unlike FW or SW fish.

When you turn your 20g into a hospital tank, you actually don't need to cycle it. Many medications used in a hospital tank can actually kill off the biofilter, so cycling would be pointless. Instead, you'd do massive water changes daily. If the meds won't harm the biofilter, you can just put your used filter cartridge into the hospital filter and get an instant cycle. Other fish would be a huge inconvenience; they would catch the GSP's disease, possibly pick on the sick/injured puffer, etc.

Your GSP is obviously benefitting from your diligent water changes and vaccuuming. A switch to new surroundings can definitely trigger stress. Also, color changes can be slightly arbitrary - they might not *always* change color when stressed, and they might not "always* be stressed when they change color.

Nothinbutrouble99 wrote:If what you are saying about him needing full marine conditions, should we just wait until the tank has been switched to marine and get marine fish? Also, shouldn't we go ahead and drip-acclimate puffer to marine conditions and get media from the marine tanks at the pet store, or is there too much risk of spreading diseases with that? (Also, I'm not going to buy anymore fish until my tank is cycled--promise!)

You could go that route too. Do you have everything you need for FOWLR tank? Chiefly the cured LR?

As stated in the GSP article in our Library & also the profile in our Pufferpedia, the minimum tank size recommended for an adult GSP is 30g. This means if you want to add tank mates, you'll have to go bigger. What I'd do right now is get the tank to FW, add established media & Tetra Safestart to the filter & acclimate the puffer. Do this tomorrow.

By the time the puffer grows to a little >2", you'll have a nice 55+g tank for him to be moved into, he'll be up to close to SW conditions & then you can consider a few tank mates like some damselfish.