The Puffer Forum

Never had problems with Bu the giant puffer, but yesterday was refusing food and today is swimming round as though he's completely blind! No obvious trauma to either eye, but he is breathing a little more quickly than usual and has some abnormal lumps and bumps under his chin and on his flanks. His tail is a little pale and he's not spreading it as much as usual. No puffing. Last seen passing stools yesterday. He usually eats crab leg (fed once or twice daily) and hunts ice cream cone snails which keep his teeth looking great. He measures approximately nine inches long (from 3.5 inches!), and we've had him for a year. Last significant changes in his environment were usual water change on Saturday (every other week) and an upgraded filtration system about six weeks ago. Tank's been alive for over six months with biological filtration that has been cycling for close to three years, and we add Prime to our water changes.

Tank parameters:
-85 gallon
-nitrate 40, nitrite 0, GH 300, chlorine 0, KH 300, pH 8.4 (usual measurements, even the nitrate)
-Rena Filstar 4
-shares space with two tiger botias, two shell dwellers (brevises), two Siamese algae eaters, four African cichlids (a frontosa, a calvis, a daffodil, and an electric blue), and an unfortunate explosion of ice cream cone snails made possible by leftovers
-sand substrate with two plants and numerous rocks for cichlids
-temp ranging from 80 to 82 fahrenheit
-incandescent lighting left off at night (and occasionally during the day if it's particularly hot)

Why on earth would a fish go blind, and how do I change it? Can he be helped? (panic panic panic panic panic...)

Your nitrates are a little on the high side for a puffer. Ideally you want to keep them below 20 for puffers to do well. You are describing early nitrate toxicity and to correct that you need to do some large water changes ASAP, around 75% to get your nitrates down to an acceptable level. You need to keep them down below 20 and to do this you need to get some of the fish out of that tank, you are stocked a little too well. MBU puffers get huge and create a large amount of waste both in normal waste production (poop) and through respiratory waste. A little side note, mammals excrete urea in vapor caused by respiration and so do fish, this breaks down in to nitrogenous waste. Ok, back on track. Plus, puffers are messy eaters and leave a lot of uneaten food lying around, much of it you can't easily see. All of what I've listed breaks down in to ammonia, then to nitrite, then to nitrate. Now, that is just one Mbu...add in all the other fish and you see where I'm heading with having to get rid of the other fish. Puffers in general really aren't community fish (you got lucky with a Mbu that tolerates tank mates).

Research and experience has shown these guys need massive tanks because they are sensitive (some say more so than other puffers) to their water quality. The bigger the tank the easier it is to control the water quality and give these guys more stable environs. You'll see in the PufferPedia Article on Mbu's that the suggested adult tank size is 1000 gallons because of this and the issue of how sensitive puffers are, because of the hormones they give off, to stunting. Now, this isn't a reason to think "Holy cow! I have to run out to get a monster tank" or "This guy's a nut case". Because you have time and I'm not (at least the voices in my head tell me I'm not). I would highly suggest getting a larger tank now (200 gallon or so) while he's still young though and then get prepared to move him in to a bigger tank eventually. If you get rid of the other fish in that 85 gallon tank you should be able to keep him there for a little while longer.

Nuts...I forgot to include the links I intended on......
library/puffers-in-focus/mbuforyou/
ug.php/v/PufferPedia/Freshwater/T_Mbu/
library/puffer-care/alone-but-not-lonel ... fers-solo/
library/puffer-care/inside-the-mind-of-a-puffer/

Fantastic reading, the first two are on Mbu's in particular, the last two are on puffer thought....

Thanks for your prompt reply! We were yet another couple of a-fish-ionados that fell in love with the little black and yellow dirigible before knowing what we were getting in to, and we now completely recognize that he'll need 200 (well, for that matter, 1000) sooner than later. We just can't do it right now for both practical and financial reasons. In the meantime, I'm stumped as to why this happened a) now instead of at any other time in the past year, b) so recently after a water change, and c) so rapidly. I've never had the nitrate go under 40 in that tank, and on some weeks it actually bumps up to 80, but it's never seemed to bother him before. I'll do another water change (we do 50% changes about every two weeks) and cross my fingers.

As for his tankmates, we can kick the smaller cichlids out but I think I'd like to keep the frontosa, the botias, and the shellies in there. He has been the most laid-back fish I own; he loves hanging out with the shellies, and when the uppity daffodil charges after him Bu just slowly swims in the opposite direction. I saw him try to nip one of the algae eaters' tails once, halfheartedly, but that was because the algae eater's butt was up in Bu's face. Otherwise, awesome personality. That's why I'm so upset to see him ill!

Anyone else have thoughts on the matter? I'm so excited to have found this forum...

Phledge wrote:Thanks for your prompt reply! We were yet another couple of a-fish-ionados that fell in love with the little black and yellow dirigible before knowing what we were getting in to, and we now completely recognize that he'll need 200 (well, for that matter, 1000) sooner than later.

I think that's about how most of us got in to puffers.

Phledge wrote:We just can't do it right now for both practical and financial reasons.

Who can, really? Look on Craigs List and on E-bay for big tanks, you can find them cheap because the bigger they are the harder they are to sell.

Phledge wrote:In the meantime, I'm stumped as to why this happened a) now instead of at any other time in the past year, b) so recently after a water change, and c) so rapidly. I've never had the nitrate go under 40 in that tank, and on some weeks it actually bumps up to 80, but it's never seemed to bother him before.

Nitrate poisoning isn't something that typically just happens. It's an accumulation and exposure over time issue. Also, check your tap water to see if there are nitrates in there.

Phledge wrote:I'll do another water change (we do 50% changes about every two weeks) and cross my fingers.

My suggestion is to do 50% (at least) daily for a while to keep his water pristine and hope the effects reverse.

Phledge wrote:As for his tankmates, we can kick the smaller cichlids out but I think I'd like to keep the frontosa, the botias, and the shellies in there. He has been the most laid-back fish I own; he loves hanging out with the shellies, and when the uppity daffodil charges after him Bu just slowly swims in the opposite direction. I saw him try to nip one of the algae eaters' tails once, halfheartedly, but that was because the algae eater's butt was up in Bu's face. Otherwise, awesome personality. That's why I'm so upset to see him ill!

Honestly, I fear you won't be able to get your nitrates down to where you need them if you keep all the fish in there. The waste is just too much for the Mbu to handle (his own plus the other larger fish). If you want to keep the other fish, I'd suggest keeping the smaller of them.

Phledge wrote:Anyone else have thoughts on the matter? I'm so excited to have found this forum...

Oh...they're on their way! I'm glad you found us, welcome, there is a lot of info to be found here!

Hi there and welcome to the forum!

i cant really comment on your situation but i would follow dadof4's advice...and i would like to take this opportunity to commend dadof4..he has helped me when i had problems and this guy goes out of his way to help a stressed owner or newbie,patience,tolerance and kindness make u a good teacher!

Dadof4 is right on the money here. Your tank is just holding at too high of nitrates for too long to keep a puffer healthy. They are tough fish, but they can't handle poor water quality, especially for extended periods of time.

Several large water changes are in order, I would expect at that Mbu's size in that small of a tank that you'd need to be doing 80-90% weekly, not to mention all the other fish.

One thought, have you checked to see what your nitrates are out of the tap? Obviously, if they are 40 in your tap water that won't dilute a tank that's at 40, but its still important to do water changes because nitrates are just one easily measured toxic thing.. lots of other organics build up too and those need to be removed/diluted.

You said he suddenly has lumps.. now, there are several things they could be, but the main two things they likely are is either tumors or nematodes. Tumors are pretty self explainatory.. not a ton you can do there but keep the water quality good and the fish's immune system strong. Nematodes are an internal parasite that live under the skin and in the muscles (instead of in the digestive tract). Normally, when the fish is healthy and not stressed out, they stay dormant and don't bother anything. But when the fish gets stressed or its immune system is low, they take advantage and begin to move around, reproduce, etc. The big problem with nematodes is you can't kill them without also killing your fish.. if you deworm, they will die off and rot inside its body, poisoning it. Dead nematodes can't be purged like digestive system internal parasites. So this means the fish will always have them, always has the potential to spread them to all your other fish, etc. Good news is if you keep the fish healthy and happy, the nematodes generally are not a problem at all.

How to tell which it is.. well, nematodes may move around and change position.. one day it might be below the eye, the next day on the jaw. As far as I know, thats the only way to know for sure other than surgery.

If the lumps are open sores or something like that (fuzzy white stuff, pink or clear bubble over them, etc) though, that's probably just skin infections from the poor water quality.

Again, first priority is getting that water clean.. check your tap for nitrates, if they are high you might want to consider a RO filter (not cheap, but you can find deals), concentrate on getting a bigger tank asap.. and keep in mind if it IS nematodes, they can and will spread, so be careful where any of those fish go in the future.

We've actually been pricing tanks for about six months now, but we know we'll be moving next May (I'm heading for residency) so it's less about the affording and more about the technical element of not having enough room in our current home.

In any event, I'm discussing this with my partner and the water's been 50% changed for now, and we'll continue changing the water daily. I gave it a little extra dollop of Prime so if it's the nitrates hopefully that'll suck some of it up. There are no nitrates in our tap so it must be from the organic wastes. As far as the lumps go, it's hard to describe (and as soon as I figure out how to post pics I'll do so) but it's more like the lumpy way he looks after he's had a good hearty meal. There are no discrete nodules or cystic structures. Maybe it's because he hasn't eaten that I'm not used to seeing his underlying anatomy! In the meantime, should I also be concerned about his diet? I worry that crab all day makes a dull puffer...the little twerp won't eat anything else we've tried, including scallops, shrimp, and squid.

Yeah, he eats better than we do.

Check out all the excellent feeding articles in our Library. All great reading in there. I hope you're using a python for all those WC!

Pufferpunk wrote:I hope you're using a python for all those WC!

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh yes. I would look like the Incredible Hulk carting bukkits back and forth from the sink.

Thanks for the welcomes--you run a nice ship here! I had seen the PufferPedia but not the forum until, naturally, something went wrong. So just about everything I know about puffers comes from this joint. I'm not a fish newbie but Bu is my first and only puffer (and I feel TOTALLY STUPID for buying a fish without thoroughly researching it first, a rookie move that I haven't made for years).

Well, now you've come to the right place. I hope we can help.

All sounds good If your tap water is zero nitrates you should be able to get that tank level down really fast, and get a better idea about how fast it is rising on you. If you're back up to 40 by the end of the week, even with several big water changes, you've really reached a critical stage. IME, puffers do best with 10 or lower.. 20 or lower they are so/so, higher than that they can stop eating, get skin sores, etc.

Hi all. Things must have been worse for Bu, either in duration or in severity, than we expected, because my puffer stopped swimming today.

In a way I think this is a blessing, because I know better than to get a replacement Mbu without the accommodations for one. It will be a special day when I can put together the resources to have another one, but in the meantime I appreciate everyone's input on the matter. I'll definitely hang around here and get puffer joy by proxy.

As a post-script, my spouse informed me late last night that there was no carbon in the filter because we couldn't find the right packages. So I have a suspicion that that's what made the difference between before and after performance. Hell, at this point it might have been air freshener buildup...

ETA: this might sound a little whack, but do we have to have this fish cremated? I know that they usually don't develop the toxins in captivity but I would hate to bury him with the lingering thought of some cat digging him up and getting fugu poisoning.

I'm sorry about your puffer. One day you can do it again.

Joy by puffer proxy? Why not get a smaller puffer?