The Puffer Forum

1. Tank size: 10 gallon
2. Tank Mates: two 1 - 2" GSP, two Danios, one placo, ghost shrimp
3. Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite: 0, 5.0, 0
4. Any chemicals or medications added to the water recently: none
5. How was the tank cycled: over a period of weeks with the danios & stress zyme
6. What is the s.g. and what kind of salt is being used: sea salt; 2T per gallon
7. How long have you had the puffers: One month
8. What is the diet: bloodworms, live snails, live ghost shrimp

I like many others wasn't fully informed when I bought my first GSP. However, I did read a lot before I purchased him. After I purchased him, I read even more about them and learned how much misinformation their is about them. No one seems to agree on too much. Anyway, before I was done, I had two small GSP and more information and realized that as they got closer to 2 inches, I'd need to purchase a bigger tank.

The Petsupermarket I bought them for has a great fish guy. He kept salt in their tank, so I replicated that at home. I'd planned to increase the salt over time when they got a little larger. I'd started out with misinformation, but was determined to take care of them the best I could and the proper way.

I added the puffers before the tank was fully cycled. Again, I didn't completely understand. However, after a couple of weeks the tank finished cycling and I never noticed any effects. That was probably a month ago. I was diligent from day one about doing weekly 25% - 30% water changes, vacuuming the tank, etc. They both ate well and I was careful not to overfeed and clean up after they were done eating. Lots of decoration with plants and natural rocks, and small ceramic bowls for caves. Anything that went into the tank was clean. Each week I did a full water test.

I was concerned about having two in the same tank, but they got a long fine. The smaller one had some beat up fins when I brought him home, but after a week or two, he fully healed. They even seemed to enjoy each other. They would hang out together and nap or swim together. I never saw them chase each other or act aggressive towards any other tankmate except for the ghost shrimp. They were quite vicious with their lunch. (;

So, the tank has been cycled. The activity has been normal. The water tests are perfect. The temperature is fine. My bigger one wasn't acting sick at all, he was eating, looked perfect, etc. A few hours later he was just sitting peacefully at the bottom of the tank and had died. I wasn't sure at first as he didn't have that dead look to his eyes. I can't think he'd been gone long. I immediately checked the water and it was still perfect. That was the day before yesterday. I talked to my LFS and he asked me a bunch of questions and he said that sometimes they just die and we don't know why. I was upset he died, but it's true. Sometimes you just don't know why.

Today, I turned the tank light off as I watched my second puffer swimming around and looking at me. I came back a 2 hours later and he was dead, just as the first one. No marks, never acted sick, etc.

Now, I definitely think something is going on. Does anyone have any ideas? I wondered if maybe there was something that got introduced from the snail tank (I keep a separate small snail tank with snails from the petstore and feed them a couple twice a week). Nothing else in the tank seems sick at all.

There are no kids in my house. I introduced no knew decorations, or plants. I didn't change food, etc. I can't think of a thing that was new or just happened. If they'd been acting sick for any period of time, I might think it was stress from improper cycling - but it's been several weeks since the cycle was complete.

I am not planning on getting any more puffers. Obviously, I am a bad puffer mom. I will miss them. They were full of personality with them curling up into balls, napping, and greeting me at the glass.

So, does anyone have any theories? It's really just me being curious now. I did the best I could, but it was obviously not good enough.

):

sorry i cant be much help. but im a bit worried about your pleco being in that tank with salt in. He wont survive long with salt. (suprised he's lived this long)

The stress caused by the 10 gallon tank and two GSPs in there is probably what killed them. Just to have those two fish you'd need at least a 60 gallon tank.

hey dont give up on puffs ! i had 3 dwarf puffers die before i got my gsp. and now ive had my gsp for a year and a half

Indie - I thought about the pleco and the salt - but it is the same salinity as the pet store kept him. So, I figured it was better to keep him in the same stuff. Maybe now that the puffers are gone, I should do a 50% water change and get rid of some of the salt?

Christemo - What kind of stress? The water was perfect and they are tiny right now. If they were bigger and didn't have room to move, I could totally see it. But, why would 1.5" fish be stressed in a 10 gallon tank with plenty of live food at all times? They never seemed upset or dashing around (not that I am any kind of expert of fish emotions). If they were chasing each other, I'd say stress too. But, they actually hung out. I'm sure that would have changed as they got older - but they showed no sign of stress. Plus, why would they both die at almost the same time?

Not trying to be argumentative. Just trying to explain things and get some ideas.

Sparks42 - Thanks for the kudos. I had wondered if maybe I'd have better luck with the dwarf puffers. Aren't they 100% fresh? In any case, I think I need some good theories on what the heck happened before I want to get more. I wonder if maybe they had some kind of disease. I'm just baffled.

Are danio's brackish water fish?

if you're going to keep brackish water fish then you'll need a hydrometer to be able to accurately judge the salinity - heaped/level tablespoon, how big are the salt crystals?
Was the sea salt marine salt bought after advise from the LFS? Some brands are better than others.

But the reason was probably because it was a bit too cramped for the puffers in the 10 gallon and they are a lot less hardy than other fish when it comes to tolerating nitrate so would have struggled since the tank wasn't completely cycled.

When we first started in the hobby we had a GSP who died within 2 months. The nitrate in our tap water is 50ppm and that was far too much for him. My guess is that some fish can tolerate 100ppm nitrate (doesn't make it right) but puffers will become ill and die above 20ppm. We now use RO water and have 2 healthy little figure 8's - so bad parents can succeed!

Iliveinazoo - I read that danios can do well in a puffer tank because they are quick and can deal with the salt. One of the reasons I picked those.

I couldn't find a hydrometer that would measure the brackish water and had been looking for one online - but I was very careful to measure the water that came out and replace accurately. I was using kosher sea salt (no idodine) I had ground fairly fine. The LFS guy that keeps the tank and has puffers said that was good.

Do you really think that 10 gallons was cramped for fish so small? Even if they showed no sign of stress (emotionally?). Maybe I don't understand the stress concept. I totally understand if they were even 2" the tank would have started getting cramped and I was planning to purchase a new tank this month.

My nitrate is at 5.0. The nitrite and ammonia was at 0. The test kit for the nitrate said anything below 30-40 (I forget) was good. And, nitrate was actually good for them (not nitrite).

Thanks for the continued encouragement.

You were mislead by the stores. Danios are a fresh water fish. I believe you meant to say you have a pleco? From what I remember most plecs req 30g or more. Each gsp req 30g. The tank was over stocked even if the fish were small. You need marine salt for brackish water conditions and some way to measure the salinity. I am not saying that you were the cause of the gsp's dying. Fish die, sometimes they have health issues that they came with from the store. This is a challenging hobby. Please do research any other fish you would like to keep.

StormySkiez - Yes. I learned after the commitment that I had not done enough research. I honestly read several sites about GSP before I got one and never got enough information. Actually WRONG information. Forums are great and sites are great, but they can have bad information. After I got them, I continued reading and then started putting together the puzzle pieces and realized I had done some wrong things. So, I really did try to research.

The fish caretaker at the store said a little salt was good for all his fish, not just puffers. He has tanks at home and has been doing it for 15 years. Not to say this means he is right. Just saying he seemed like a good person to get advice from. Perhaps the amount of salt is good for short term in a fish store and he doesn't do that at home. I don't know. I have read plenty of other places online that said they keep a little salt in their freshwater tanks at all times. Other say it doesn't matter. And still others say it's bad. I guess it ends up being trial and error.

Eventually, the pleco will grow to need a larger tank, but he is small now. I've had them before successfully for years. Not worried about the tank, but a little worried about the salt now - despite the LFS keeping him in the same salted water.

So, since I now only have the pleco and danios a few shrimp - what does anyone recommend? 50% water change to get rid of some of the salt? Or maybe 20% every couple of days? Thoughts?

well the salt you were using is just aquarium salt, not marine salt, so it is unlikely to have too much of an adverse affect. However, your gsp's needed marine salt to raise the salinity, which probably would have killed your pleco anyhow.

As others have said, the 10g was overstocked as it was and would have caused stress to the fish. Which seems the most likely cause of death at the moment.

I didn't realize there was such a difference between aquarium salt and marine salt. Interesting. Could that have stressed them? Or it was probably "overstocking"?

Overstocking still confuses me. If I have a 10 gallon tank and 3 inches of fish - how is that better or worse than when they get bigger and I have 30 gallons and 9 inches of fish?

Still odd they chose to die within 24 hours of each other if that's the case.

So, do you think I should worry about a 30 - 50 % water change if I am just using aquarium salt?

Overstocking really doesn't have anything to do with "inches of fish." The old maxim of "one inch of fish for every one gallon" really only applies to tropical community fish afaik.

I keep cichlids as well as puffers and I can tell you that most cichlid keepers try to keep one inch of fish for every five gallons of water. Why? Because the bioload (food, waste, etc) is different for different fishes. My cichlids eat quite alot and thus produce far more waste than say tropical community fish. Puffers are even messier and produce even more waste. I know you said your water tested fine, but eventually the bioload from your stock would have crashed that tank.

To prevent or control overstocking, you really have to look into what fish you want to keep and plan accordingly. Overfilter as much as possible.

Hopefully you don't give up on puffers. They're awesome fish!

2tbsp salt/g is hardly BW, considering low-end BW SG requires roughly around 1 CUP of salt/5g, so let's not give this guy a hard time about keeping his FW fish in "BW". I do believe that was a lot of bioload for the 10g tank. Even as juvies such as yours, I suggest a minimum of 10g ea (w/o tankmates) & at that bioload, suggest weekly 50% WC. Then at 2" upgrading to 20g ea & 3", 30g ea. Do you have your own test kits?

Puffers are sensitive fish (emotionally) & do not appreciate a fish like a danio zippping around in their tank, where they can't go to a quiet corner to get away from them. Also, you might not have been able to see what the pleco was doing at night--possible harassment?

As far as that petstore employee keeping all his FW fish in some salt, it's an unnessary old wive's tale: http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article77.html

Overstocked/too small of a tank, improper tankmates, improper salt (and therefore likely improper pH, hardness etc.), and live food that you hadn't quarantined IMO probably all contributed.
No worries. Trust me, we all made mistakes with our first tanks. It takes time and research to get it right.

No matter how nice they seem, never take fish store employees seriously, especially about puffers.

Don't give up on puffers, yet. I lost my first puffer because I didn't know what I was doing and the pet store staff gave me lots of misinformation. But, the folks at this site gave me lots of good advice and now I have 7 tanks and healthy, happy, puffers.