The Puffer Forum

I wanted to inquire to all if anyone has personally kept/even seen in person this species along with Arothron carduus, Arothron firmamentum, Arothron gillbanksii, Arothron leopardus, Arothron inconditus and Arothron reticularis?

These species, for the most part, seem to be enigmas to the aquarium world. While most descriptions and drawings I have found or obtained are very old - some done by Linneaus himself along with many of the other 'first' people to start to really catalog fish (Bloch, Schneider etc..).

Caeruleopunctatus and Reticularis seem to be the closest in the sense that there are even a few pics on this forum of Reticularis seemingly owned by a member - other than this and fishbase.org, ther seems to be little to no info out there. My (2) primary contacts I reach out to for specimens for keeping and visual research are based out of Los Angeles and Costa Rica - neither of which has ever seen one enter the trade - both are familiar only having heard about them and studied fishbase and other nomenclature/info sites...

So of course I thought I would reach out to you all - I am hoping some of the above may simply be out-dated nomenclature and we can put them in the history books under "old names" or duplicates...

So what do you all fellow puffer keepers know about these - one or all?

A. firmamentum exists and is often fished in the Japanese sea, numerous pictures are available. It was said to be imported to Europe and the US, but the imported fishes (I have seen pictures of) without a doubt showed to be a similarly colored Chelonodon sp.. A. caeruleopunctatus and A. reticularis exist, and as you know at least the latter was kept in aquaria and occasionally appears in trade.

IMHO A. leopardus is a synonym of T. nigroviridis.

Arothron carduus maybe a synonym, too. Would have to look this one up. I think I should have the first description.

For Arothron gillbanksii see Kuiter: Coastal fishes of south-eastern Australia

A. inconditus was decribed and illustrated by Smith. If it's truly no synonym is not perfectly clear, but I believe Smith knew the other, earlier described species. Picture at fishbase is available.

You can easily see if the others are synonyms by getting the first decription and visiting the holtypes if still available. Most puffer species simply do not occur in trade, because they are rare or live in areas where no fish are caught for the aquarium trade.

WOW you are good! Thanks for the superb info....I am going to look up all of what you indicated and see what I can't come up with....so with this, I am going with there are Arothron species that are FW? I didn't think so but without pics/locations its next to impossible to know (i.e. A. Leopardus and A. Carduus). I have downloaded all the pics I can find including fishbase to try to get an idea - unfortunately many of the lesser known are not the best as you know.

So A. Firmamentum - Have you seen this one available in the US? I can't say I have and numerous attempts at locating one (even for past sale) has proven to no avail...?

schlecht13 wrote: I am going with there are Arothron species that are FW?

No, but a lot of Arothron species are to some degree euryhaline and frequently enter estuaries and rivers, especially when young. Ebert (Aqualog puffer book) sums them up quite nicely.

schlecht13 wrote:I didn't think so but without pics/locations its next to impossible to know (i.e. A. Leopardus and A. Carduus). I have downloaded all the pics I can find including fishbase to try to get an idea - unfortunately many of the lesser known are not the best as you know.

Yes, the first decription texts and the holotypes cannot be avoided for taxonomic purposes. I know it's a pain, lots of calls, possibly travels, but if you are doing taxonomy, at some point you always have to see the holotypes if available, no matter if it's dinosaurs, insects or puffers.

schlecht13 wrote:So A. Firmamentum - Have you seen this one available in the US? I can't say I have and numerous attempts at locating one (even for past sale) has proven to no avail...?

No, the ones in trade I have seen pictures of were Chelonodon sp. and not "A. firmamentum", which was what they were labelled. If you want this species, you'd probably have to find an exporter from Southern Japan. All A. firmamentum I have seen pictures of (one I believe was kept in an aquarium) were from Japan.

No, but a lot of Arothron species are to some degree euryhaline and frequently enter estuaries and rivers, especially when young. Ebert (Aqualog puffer book) sums them up quite nicely.

I have read quite a few on these - especially the seemingly most common - T. nigroviridis -...I have never seen one as large as 6 inches - common in aquaria?

Yes, the first decription texts and the holotypes cannot be avoided for taxonomic purposes. I know it's a pain, lots of calls, possibly travels, but if you are doing taxonomy, at some point you always have to see the holotypes if available, no matter if it's dinosaurs, insects or puffers.

I agree - currently (until I get back to Florida) I travel quite a bit now and am hoping to combine "business with studies" with the hope of determing more on these particular 'oddball' taxa. I'll be sure to post as I travel more - I have an upcoming trip to Manilla and go through Tokyo - am hoping to stay a few days and travel south per your recommendation along with knowing there are so many exporters down there - was previously inquiring more about Caeruleopunctatus as well as various clown species but will add some of these to my list

schlecht13 wrote:... T. nigroviridis -...I have never seen one as large as 6 inches - common in aquaria?

Not totally uncommon, but usually seen smaller. See http://www.thepufferforum.com/forum/vie ... =5&t=11465
T. nigroviridis may possibly consist of several "real" species or regional variations difficult to differentiate.

schlecht13 wrote:
I agree - currently (until I get back to Florida) I travel quite a bit now and am hoping to combine "business with studies" with the hope of determing more on these particular 'oddball' taxa. I'll be sure to post as I travel more - I have an upcoming trip to Manilla and go through Tokyo - am hoping to stay a few days and travel south per your recommendation along with knowing there are so many exporters down there - was previously inquiring more about Caeruleopunctatus as well as various clown species but will add some of these to my list

Good luck tracking them down!
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... 1d795809c0
Hint: The authors of this article might be able to tell you where to get the firmamentum, they had at least 25

Excellent info-I will need some good luck on tracking down - let alone giving me the time of day! Of course who knows - maybe I'll run right into one...I'd love to see one in person - Caeruleopunctatus that is along with others....I figure I ought to take advantage of the travel while my company is footing the bill...everywhere I go I try to learn something!

Corvus - meant to ask (of course if you don't mind my asking) what do you do in Germany and what is your PhD emphasis? Where did you study - here in the states or in Germany?

I'm working as a scientific consultant for various companies/universities/countries. Mostly geology, groundwater, pollution, tunnels and mines... much research, but also some work for tourism industry and fisheries. I've studied Geology and Palaeontology in Europe, but also took most courses in Physics, Chemistry and Biology where I saw fit. My phd was about the development of new methods to determine stress in rocks (mostly in tunnels). Aside the real work I write (articles/books) on various groups of organisms: my favourites are moray eels, puffers, most early dinosaurs and some others...

How far away are they from cloning dinasours?

Not even able to clone Thylacines (Tasmanian wolfs) or Mammoths (both are still tried), although their DNA is preserved in a significantly better condition.

Personally I'd like to see a dodo.

Me too Corvus, I think they are pretty awesome.

Pufferpunk wrote:How far away are they from cloning dinasours?

They actually cloned a bunch of them back in the 90's and tried to make them theme park attractions. But, due to a tropical storm (and perhaps some shady employee practices), the dinosaurs eventually got out of their enclosures and ate almost everyone. There was a great documentary about it that included actual footage 10-15 years ago.

CoreyK wrote:

Pufferpunk wrote:How far away are they from cloning dinasours?

They actually cloned a bunch of them back in the 90's and tried to make them theme park attractions. But, due to a tropical storm (and perhaps some shady employee practices), the dinosaurs eventually got out of their enclosures and ate almost everyone. There was a great documentary about it that included actual footage 10-15 years ago.

haha! I've seen that documentray my favorite line is, "Hold on to yer butts" my sisters and I still use that phrase today, hahaha

I think there was a couple more documentaries after the first, but they were of a lower caliber, scientifically speaking.