The Puffer Forum

Hello again....

As posted in previous threads, CheliFish is not well. CheliFish is a GSP, about 2.25" long.

He won't eat. No matter what I offer. He at one small ramshorn snail yesterday, nothing since then. His appetite's been declining for awhile, now. At first, I thought it might simply be pickiness, because he'd eat certain things I offered: snails, raw shrimp, mealworms.

Now, he won't eat anything at all. He seems to want to eat, but I think the act makes him physically uncomfortable. He's got some protrusions on each side, just below and behind each gill. The protrusions look as though something sharp is attempting to push through the skin. Both protrusions have slowly moved backwards, toward his tail, over the past day or so. I think he's trying to pass them.

I stayed up with him until 3:00am this morning. He looked bad. His color was terrible, he was gasping for air, hiding in his cave. I was sure he wouldn't make it through the night.

I woke up this morning to find him skating up and down the glass like a little aquatic hummingbird, almost like his normal self, except for that fact that he's so THIN. His color was beautiful, his breathing was normal, he was peppy, perky, and had his old goofy smile again. He even came to the top of the tank as he USED TO do when it was feeding time.

I offered raw shrimp soaked in fresh garlic. He "panicked". Looked at the food as though it was something that made him VERY nervous. His color went all mottled, and he swam down to the bottom of the tank and hid inside his cave, gasping for breath again.

(**heavy sigh**)

I've been dipping him in a VERY small (2.5gal) QT tank dosed with Prazi-Pro, (suspect gill flukes, due to very heavy breathing/gasping, and the fact that he's alternating gills), with aquarium salt. I put some epsom salt in last night, and again today, at the advice of Pufferpunk.

He always seems so much better off in the baths, rather than his tank. His home is a 20gal tank with crushed coral substrate, 9 small and 3 med/largish ghost shrimp, and one red-clawed crab. I did a 60% WC on Saturday, 12/22. Params are as follows:

pH - 8.3 (currently - for some reason, the pH in the 20gal tank fluctuates wildly)
Temp - 80°F
Ammonia - 0ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm
Nitrate - ~30ppm
SG - 1.007

I have his new home all set up and ready to go. It's a 37gal, SG at 1.009, (I lowered it slightly from the "tweener" stage of 1.01). I tried cycling it with Marine Bio-Spira on Christmas Eve. No go. Apparently the SG is too low, and I'll need to get Fresh Water Bio-Spira to do the job. Not a problem. I can pick that up tonight.

HOWEVER, if he won't eat, he won't live. And he WON'T eat. Period.

I'm not sure just how thin he is, (relatively speaking), as I've only HIM to judge by. But he's thin by his standards, and just looks weak.

I've been advised that I may need to attempt a force-feeding. That's fine. I'll do whatever I have to do to help him. But I need some help.

How do I NOT destroy his slime coat?
How do I NOT crush his tiny little body?
How do I hold him?
Where do I put my fingers?
How big a pipette, (I assume it will have to be a pipette), should I use?
Where can I get one?
How do I insert it?
What types of vitamins should I mix with the food?
What dosage of Prazi-Pro? (I HAVE to assume that there's some sort of IP involved)

The very LAST thing I want is to hurt him. He's been through so much already. I can't stand to see him suffer the way he is.

Please, if anyone can help, I'd be extremely grateful....

I could be wrong, but the fact that he had "protrusions" and the way you describe it, is it possible that he is another victim of a snail shell stuck in his system?

I've already entertained the possibility, and brought it up in two other threads.

I suppose it's possible.

I wanted you to know I sent a PM to Puffer Queen. She's the only one that can really tell you how to do this. I've read a lot about it & have sucessfully instructed folks on how to FF larger puffers but never smaller ones. How is he doing now?

Good evening, PP. Thanks for following up. I may sound silly, but it helps immensely to at least FEEL like I'm not alone in this.....

We had another crisis tonight.

I went out and bought the FW B-S, came home and dosed the tank.

It crashed. Good thing I was watching closely and noticed when Cheli started that frantic skating up and down the glass. I got him out of there and back into the 20gal, then tested the water in the 37gal. The nitrites were at 0.50. I figured that was WAY too high for a sick, stressed fish.

I called the LFS. He told me that the B-S might take as long as 3 days to cycle the tank, as it was only supposed to take care of the first stage.....i.e. neutralizing the Ammonia. He added that the nitrites, at that level, wouldn't kill my fish "right away", and that he would probably be okay if I left him in there, as long as I kept up with frequent WC until the cycle completed.

I decided NOT.

He also advised that I probably didn't need to worry quite so much about Cheli right now. He stated that he could probably go a good week or so without food before death by starvation was a real threat. He advised getting the water params correct, getting the fish stable, and THEN worrying about getting him fed.

How much stock should I put in this guy's advice?

Okay....He's been fluttering around in his tank, in "begging mode" for the past 10 minutes. His color looks good, he seems perky and energetic.

I tried to feed him.....again.

Off he goes as though the food "scares" him, color turning all mottled and brown, and back inside his cave where he's now hiding.

What could possibly be wrong with him?

I wouldn't worry about feeding him now, they can last a while without food. Get the water fixed first. So is the 20g cycled?

How are you moving him between tanks? If you are just putting him in different water very quickly, it might have something to do with why he isn't feeling well.

Pretty sure you have to add a fish at the same time you add Bio spira. Just do a complete water change. Acclimate your GSP and follow the instructions on the package.

spoot wrote:I wouldn't worry about feeding him now, they can last a while without food. Get the water fixed first. So is the 20g cycled?

Yes. The 20gal is fully cycled, and he's been living there for 1.5 months. I wouldn't be so concerned about the feeding, except that the poor little guy looks absolutely emaciated to me. He's not eaten but one small snail in the past two days, and prior to that his appetites been off.

spoot wrote:How are you moving him between tanks? If you are just putting him in different water very quickly, it might have something to do with why he isn't feeling well.

He hasn't been feeling well for some time, that's why I've been moving him. The only time he appears to be his old self is when he's in a QT tank with aquarium salt and Prazi-Pro. Otherwise he's just lethargic and listless. As for how I'm moving him......I'm coralling him with a net, under water, and "guiding" him into a large 4 cup measuring cup, then dunking the whole thing, cup, fish and all, into the new tank/QT tank as needed, and letting him swim out of the cup.

spoot wrote:Pretty sure you have to add a fish at the same time you add Bio spira.

Done. As I said, I put the Bio-Spira, and CheliFish, in the 37gal, and watched VERY closely. Took about 45 minutes for him to start that frantic "skating" which tipped me off that something wasn't right. I got him out of there ASAP.

spoot wrote:Just do a complete water change. Acclimate your GSP and follow the instructions on the package.

Again, done. This is the second dosage of Bio-Spira I've tried in the tank. The first was Marine formula Bio-Spira. It didn't take. The tank crashed. So I did a 60% WC, and dropped the SG to 1.009, then went out and got Fresh Water formula Bio-Spira. That didn't take, either. It crashed again.

Pufferpunk wrote:I wanted you to know I sent a PM to Puffer Queen. She's the only one that can really tell you how to do this. I've read a lot about it & have sucessfully instructed folks on how to FF larger puffers but never smaller ones. How is he doing now?

Received your PM as well as PufferPuck's.

I suggested that the PM be posted on a thread as all can learn/benefit from the exchange of knowledge.

I would suggest using a small gauge angiocath (IV catheter used on animals and people). I would use a 22 or 24 for this size puffer. I would insert the catheter to a premeasured & marked length. (mouth to just past the gills).

Insert the catheter gently - if resistance is met, do not force.

Feed 2 - 4% of the body weight. Make sure the food (slushie) being fed passes easily through the feeding catheter. I would add vitamins, beta glucan and try metronidazole in case it is an intestinal protozoaans.

As far as holding, I would put on a glove and coat the glove with a slime coat protector - many available at LFS/online. By holding the puffer cradled in your hand you can feel the stomach filling with food.

If the puffer is weak, anesthesia may not be needed.

And if he's weak, but not so weak as to be completely still?

My fear is that any kind of anestesia may well turn out to be more along the lines of euthanasia.....

Don't tranq him, just hold him underwater, so he doesn't swallow air. Don't be concerned if he struggles or puffs. Just get the food into him.

Alright.....

I was considering a combination of thawed blood worms and thawed mysis, rinsed in tank water, drained, soaked in Prazi-Pro and vitamins.

My reasoning is that both will not require "blending" in the blender, as they are tiny enough to be given "whole".

One last plea....

Has ANYONE ever performed this procedure? Successfully?

I'm more than a little nervous.....

How did this work out PufferPuck30?

Update:

Well, the force feeding didn't seem to go as badly as I'd anticipated. Then again....I wasn't the one with a feeding tube shoved down my gullet, either.

I got it done. He wasn't happy about it, bit the syringe rather testily, but I got it done. He spit out a large portion of the food I forced into him, but I think I got some into his tummy to stay.

There's a tiny lump in his tummy where it was emaciated before. Hopfully that's from food.

I just hope I didn't hurt/damage him, or stress him beyond recovery with the procedure.

It was hours ago, and he still looks a bit shell-shocked.

Good news! I hope he gets completly well soon!